Foxhole Symphony
Foxhole Symphony
Unraveling Excellence: Mark Jordan on Transformational Growth and Authentic Men's Communities
What if the key to true growth lies in disintegration first? This week, we are excited to welcome Mark Jordan, the visionary mind behind Unravel Groups, as he unpacks the profound journey of 'unraveling' inspired by Isaiah 6. Mark discusses the mission of his organization to help men achieve excellence across spiritual, relational, and vocational dimensions. Together, we explore the challenge of Christian men being perceived as mediocre in the marketplace and underscore the importance of commitment in the pursuit of excellence.
Mark takes us on a deep dive into the intentionality and preparation required for personal growth, drawing parallels with historical figures who were meticulously prepared for their roles. Discover how Unravel Groups empowers men to overcome obstacles in faith, family, friends, fitness, and finances, creating a holistic environment that transcends traditional church groups. Mark shares his insights on how redefining men's groups can lead to genuine, supportive communities, emphasizing the importance of wellness and authentic connections.
The conversation doesn't stop there. We delve into the power of small, intimate accountability groups and the transformational leadership that arises from such tight-knit connections. Mark outlines the various paths offered by Unravel Groups, from self-paced programs to long-term commitments, with the audacious goal of reaching a million men in ten years. Through Mark's personal journey of faith and professional life, we reflect on the transformative power of serving others and integrating faith into everyday endeavors. Join us for an episode filled with inspiration, actionable insights, and the promise of meaningful change.
We have BIG plans at Foxhole Symphony and sure could use your financial support. Would you prayerfully consider a small monthly contribution to support us in our mission to catalyze transformation in the hearts of men? Support Our Mission
Find us at:
https://www.facebook.com/foxholesymphony
https://www.instagram.com/foxholesymphony/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuvcXdDpE79S_D_hInblcDw
Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the transformational value of men in authentic community.
Speaker 2:In our foxhole. Men are equipped to build relationships that foster belonging, accountability and growth.
Speaker 1:Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in isolation and instead join us on the journey from broken to whole.
Speaker 3:Hello everyone. They call me the Maestro and we are back in the foxhole where we actively pursue belonging, accountability and growth through authentic relationships. No masks, no agendas, just iron sharpening iron. Steve and Mark are in the foxhole today and they have a guest with them. Let me ask you something Are you ready to get unraveled? Let's open our hearts, our minds and our favorite notes app, because here we go.
Speaker 4:Hey, welcome back to Foxhole Symphony Podcast. I'm Sarge here with my good friend Mark.
Speaker 1:Hey brother.
Speaker 4:How are you?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm not melting in Florida, you're not, no it was.
Speaker 4:I'm not melting in Florida, you're not. No, it was, I'm melting a little bit. I'm melting a little bit.
Speaker 1:Bro, we're having these 40s at night here in Jersey. I heard, I heard I'm not rubbing it in I heard about it?
Speaker 4:Yes, you are.
Speaker 1:A little. I'm sorry you are, I'm rubbing it in a little, but Listen take all the shots you want.
Speaker 4:My time's coming, baby. My time is coming About three months. I'm going to take my shots, but it's good to see your face and hear your voice, of course, and I'm excited to have a guest with us in the foxhole, and so why don't you get us started and intro our guest?
Speaker 1:Sure, absolutely. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Mark Jordan, the founder of Unravel Groups. Let me tell you a little bit about Mark before we start talking with him. Mark is the founder of Unravel Groups, an accomplished entrepreneur with a rich background in investment, banking, real estate and financial services. Mark has authored several books and initiated numerous impactful projects. He passionately mentors men driving transformational growth across spiritual, relational and vocational realms. A true advocate for integrity, leadership and service, mark's insights are fueled by his diverse experiences and deep commitment to helping others excel. Join us as we explore his journey and wisdom. Mark Jordan, welcome in the foxhole.
Speaker 5:Thank you guys. Thanks for having me. Man, that sounds good reading that Mark. Wow, that sounds pretty good. I need to compliment the team member who wrote that man.
Speaker 1:So, Mark, you know what. It's going to be appropriate for us to start simply by Unravel Group. Sarge and I were having a little fun with that before You've heard all the puns, I'm sure. But tell us about the journey of Unravel Groups and what that really means. Is that a ministry? Is that a business? Is it both? Tell us more about it, please.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I'm welcome All the puns you got, man. So yeah, injecting some humor into it is great. So life is hard and serious enough, that's for sure. Amen.
Speaker 5:The name Unravel, first, the genesis for it is this idea from Isaiah 6, the first eight or so verses of Isaiah, that part of it is this encounter that Isaiah has and he has this realization that the gap between him and God is so big. And he has this realization that the gap between him and God is so big. And then, before he can really experience growth, there's this unraveling or disintegration that needs to occur first, then creating space for integration to occur, or the maturation process, development becoming more Christ-like over time, and so that unravel is really. That's really what's behind it is. We've created this small group environment and other adjacent content, if you will. That's all about helping men learn to become better leaders, but also to learn to pursue excellence in a more meaningful way, because we really feel like that.
Speaker 5:On the whole, this is a generalization. There's exceptions, of course, but men in general, christian men in general, don't have a reputation in the marketplace for excellence. They just don't. You know, it's not like they go oh wow, that guy's clearly a Christian because look how excellent he is in the workplace, more times than not, oftentimes it's mediocre. And so, while Enravel Grips is not just for Christian men that was really what spurred me on was going wow, you know I met regularly with some young guys, and one in particular, that really we started talking. We need to launch this for men at large, because there's so many men that just don't understand what it means to be the best you can be in the marketplace and what that, how that reflects not only God but also just their own testimony in the marketplace. So that was the genesis behind it. Came from that and really wanting men to be better at that. Cool.
Speaker 4:Thank you. So I got, I got to jump. I got to jump on that Cause I you know it's, and I read a little bit about that in in your, in your materials, and you know if I'm honest which I am and I will be you know I read the word excellence and I went Ooh, you know, like I come up in some, some church environments where you know actually it's a dirty word, Right. It put me on my heels a little bit and I went. Man, I can't wait to unpack this and talk to Mark about what he means by that, and especially if you know you're reaching out to men who you know aren't mature in their faith. So I don't want to lead the conversation too far, but I want to hear from you Unpack excellence for me and what we mean by that.
Speaker 5:It's so interesting. You said that because you're right, it is a dirty word in the sort of faith community at large, in many elements of the faith community. So, first, excellence means a couple of things. First, it means a couple of things. First, it means doing what you say you're going to do. When you say you're going to do it all the time, in every environment that you show up in, we're not talking about perfection. We have a phrase that we use a lot in Unravel, which is progress, not perfection.
Speaker 5:So are you on a journey to show up prepared in every environment that you show up in? So doing what you say when you say? Second is when you show up for something workplace, your marriage or friendships, whatever are you prepared in a way that separates you from everyone else? And the fact is most people don't show up prepared. So if you think about it in those two ways, just those two things, and we could of course expand in many other you know descriptive phrases.
Speaker 5:And then you think about the church world. And you're right, it's like so many times in church world, if you're available, you're hired. That's it. If you're available and you're willing, then you're hired Instead of where are you gifted? And then let's then teach you and then let's have a high expectation that demands excellence in everything, across all aspects of what you know, of what venue that you're operating in. So it's so interesting you said that it's something that really drives me crazy was very fortunate when we were in the early formative years and our young family, we were part of starting a church in Atlanta. That really showed me for the first time how you can have excellence in the church. You know the church world and it was so. It just it really inspired me to not just have it in the workplace but also in the church world as well.
Speaker 4:Well, I appreciate you unpacking that and you know, and of course I you know, I thought I might have been, you know, teetering on the brink of potential insult.
Speaker 4:And of course but no, but seeing the word, I figured there was more to unpack there, and so I wanted to start there because and I thought you did that so well and it makes sense, and I think there's a tendency perhaps to view excellence as one extreme or the other, right, like it's either a dirty word and it's evil, or it's fully on your own strength, right and by your own power and devoid of God in you, right, and and by your own power and devoid of, uh, of of of God in you, right, and so those are two extremes that you know it doesn't have to mean that Right and to your point.
Speaker 4:As you were talking and explaining that, one of the words that came to mind was intentionality. You know intentionality, and and and I was thinking, wow, that's. You know, in some of the circles that Mark and I, you know, serve in, we hear, you know words like intentionality and intensity. You know which are important. You know they're important to have. You know, as we look to serve God and serve others, and as you were describing what you mean by excellence, those were some of the words that came to mind.
Speaker 5:What you mean by excellence? Those were some of the words that came to mind. Yeah, steve, you know you think about the people that have come before us historically, particularly biblically. These were people that were prepared, man, I mean, when they showed up for their chosen field or what they were chosen for. These were people that were prepared and intentional. They didn't just show up and go, oh, I don't know. Let me just think off the top of my head and, you know, share a thought with you they were intensely prepared and intentional.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, intentionality is such an important part and we want it to be. It's really not just about, of course, as I said earlier, christians. This is for all men. So I don't just think it's in the Christian space, I just think it's more disappointing to see it in the church space. If it's not in the church space, it's not as disappointing. But men, I think inherently, steve, I think they know that they can be more. They know they can deliver more, they know they can show up better prepared. Oftentimes they just haven't had people encourage them and give them tools to do that with, and that's what we do at Unravel.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting to me, Sarge. I'm going to grab a couple of things. First of all, I'm thinking about the message you're trying to communicate in the church world is a message from the heart. You can speak your heart language at church. We're just more comfortable doing it there. In the secular world, we tend to talk from our heads.
Speaker 5:Yeah, in Unravel we try to sit above First. We try to stay away from the typical church language because we believe that every good, truthful principle has come from God anyway, right? Whether it's a book written by an author know an author who isn't faith-based, or whether it's one from who is faith-based, if it's a truthful principle, it all came from God anyway. So we want to sit above that and talk and really focus on principle. It's very principle-driven and we try to think in terms of faith, family, friends, fitness, finances, which is another way of categorizing what you just said, mark. So obviously, the faith piece is not a piece of our life. It's the wrapping, it's the DNA that flows through everything. The other things are parts of our life and we've found that every man is stuck in at least one of those areas of his life, regardless of age, regardless of accomplishments of those areas of his life, regardless of age, regardless of accomplishments, he's stuck in one area. At least one area of that life or, said another way, has room for lots of growth that he's very aware of, right? Sometimes it's more than that. So in unravel groups there'll be a collection of men who are stuck in different areas, so when they come in.
Speaker 5:We're focused on principles and every month is a different, attacks a different area or addresses a different area, and then provide skills in those areas that transcend that particular slice. So if you're stuck in your family area, someone else is stuck in their friends, or let's call that interpersonal area area, someone else is stuck in their friends, or let's call that interpersonal area. The principles that they learn transcend the area so that they can apply that and wherever they're stuck in. And then we want men to see this, so men that are in it that don't come from a faith background, maybe they're not even curious about that.
Speaker 5:We believe that this can either be maybe a seed and maybe it's going to get watered in a different venue after this, maybe it's already been planted and it's been watered and maybe it will come to fruition in unravel. But we want them if they haven't been exposed to that, they're going to know. It's clear through our content that this is a faith-based environment and it's clear that they're going to be exposed to the truth. The men that do come are faith-based environment, then they obviously have that grid to look through. But those that don't are going. Where did this come from? Well, it came from truth, you know, and we're able to share that with them, and it's, it's. We've seen the life change has been so incredibly exciting and encouraging and humbling.
Speaker 1:Wow, that must be a fantastic environment to be in. Can we zero in on the friends one for a moment?
Speaker 5:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Can you give me a couple of the principles, because I want to go there, because I want to talk to you about, I think it's the redefining of men's groups, what that looks like, the new era of men's wellness, right? As part of Unravel I was reading about.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah. So a lot of this came from my experience growing up. Growing up, you know, as an adult, and I experienced sort of two ends of the spectrum for groups. I experienced a traditional community group, you know from your church, which was awesome and there's a great place for it, which typically was more socially oriented no real preparation, typically there's exceptions. Place for it, which typically was more socially oriented no real preparation, typically there's exceptions, but it's more show up, hang time, maybe some quote, accountability, and so that's one piece.
Speaker 5:The other end of the spectrum, let's say, was like a BSF I don't know if you're familiar with that which I loved and did that. It's wonderful, it's more intellectual, it's a seven-year program through the body and it's wonderful. Out it's wonderful, it's more intellectual, it's a seven-year program through the body and it's wonderful and it's not for everyone. So I really felt like there was this place in the middle that I just didn't see a lot out there for where men I feel like men really feel like they need they've accomplished something and they've moved the ball down the field and whatever the environment is. So the social ones I don't feel like create that feeling most of the time, where they really feel like they've run this marathon together with a man, but yet the BSF is a little too intellectual for most men. So this center part is where we wanted to land that sort of marries, those two.
Speaker 5:There's some hard work. You feel like you're running a marathon, but you're also doing it in community, because we all know scalable, sustained growth is best done in a community, a small group, not individually. The average person, I think, reads one and a half books a year and even if they read the best book in the year, the best book they could possibly read, it's hard to scale that growth when you're just by yourself reading a book. So within that context you take the friend's piece. So a man that's in a Ravel group is going to learn a principle, let's say. One principle is there's a simple one. I didn't come up with this you reap what you sow, but it's later and greater. Most people think of you just reap what you sow and that's it. They forget about the later and greater part. So if a person's stuck in friendships, they need to be reminded that hey, if you're not experiencing life-giving interpersonal relationships, then maybe you need to look at where you're investing, what seeds you're sowing in that. And if you're not doing that, how can you be reaping the life-giving experience of an intimate relationship with other men?
Speaker 5:Another example would be crucial conversations. You know, most people aren't equipped to have crucial conversations where they can really sit down and go okay, particularly in today's world. Right, we disagree on something or I need to share with you, mark, you know this. I don't really feel like our relationship has really progressed to the level that I would like for it to. How do you feel about that? Or just not having the tools to have healthy, crucial conversations? That's another example. But that's applicable not just interpersonally with friends, but with your family, right, you know? And when we say finances, we're referring to not just money, but your vocation, your workplace. It's applicable there. So that's an example of how we try to take these things and we help men see they're applicable in all areas of their life.
Speaker 1:So there's overlap in the five F's.
Speaker 5:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:And interesting, because the Foxhole Symphony, this quest for authentic community Sarge and I talk about every episode is born in that community. You can find belonging, accountability and growth. Those are the three principles that we use as constants. There are many others, but those are the constants that we find and that growth I think you're talking about that as well growing in your friendship, relational abilities, your vocation, growing in your family connection, et cetera, et cetera 100 percent Progress, not perfection.
Speaker 5:It's interesting you mentioned accountability. My personal experience has been over the years that accountability is something obviously very important and when we need it the most we're generally the least likely to ask for it, meaning that even if we're in a group and the group is quote an accountability group, and if I'm struggling with something, it's not likely in my biggest struggling moment I'm going to say to the group hey, I'm doing this thing over here, I need someone to get it. It doesn't usually work that way. That's been my experience, at least in groups that I've been in. So we're trying to not only create the space for that, but to give men the tools so that they're more equipped not only just in that space the accountability space but all the others as well to have better conversations around it, so that they are more willing you know when the time comes.
Speaker 1:I understand that. I'm sorry for dominating Mark, but it's a Mark thing, you understand right, Listen.
Speaker 4:I knew that from the beginning. That's why I got my words in right up front.
Speaker 1:I was like I got to get my. I got to get my five minutes in here. Last 18 years there's been a men's group called Band of Brothers Funny, it had a lot to do with Tom Hanks and that part, but Band of Brothers has met in my basement every other Thursday for 18 years.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:Right and Sarge and I also participate in a ministry called Marked Men for Christ, and others for that matter. But we've been leading in that environment and now find ourselves where those are big group environments. You can have meetings with 20, 30, 40 people and personally, as I got older, the intimacy factor became more and more and more important for me and I found that I really wanted to stop. The larger group environment, Band of Brothers, was a come as you are right. We weren't taking attendance or dues. Just bring a snack and bring it, and you can be secular, you can be faith-based, you can come from whatever gutter that you want to. We had a lot of broken souls there, a lot of addiction, things like that Folks looking for just a place that could be safe.
Speaker 1:But now Sarge and I participate in a group called Victorious Together and it's five men, and those five men are going deep, are accountable, are sharpening each other, are learning and sharing our deepest, deepest joys. Concerns challenges, fears, sinful nature, all the things that God made in what I call our bent. Challenges, fears, sinful nature, all the things that God made in what I call our bent, not broken world, right. So that's where our heads and hearts are now where the smaller, more intimate group of men willing to commit to meet two to three times a month in person whenever possible, or via technology if we have to. But I can tell you I don't know how big the unravel meetings can be or how you propose that happen For us today in Sarge. You can jump in any time. We have simply decided to have a very small, deep pool to play in, to grow in our faith, to see what God's plan might be for the best version of Steve Sargent and Mark Vesper.
Speaker 5:Yeah, definitely for us. You know, group sizes are, you know, six to eight, you know, with six being the ideal size, seven or eight is fine, but any larger than that. We've had them as big as nine, but it gets a bit challenging. Those guys are committed. We've had them as big as nine, but it gets a bit challenging. Those guys are committed, you know, when they it's not a kind.
Speaker 5:And, by the way, one thing I do want to say, because sometimes I get so excited about unravel groups I can sometimes communicate that it's the only way to do a group. I don't think that at all. I think there's lots of different ways to do groups. I just think that the space that we're filling, this is how we do it. You know, the church that we were a part of in Atlanta, we always thought in terms of a foyer, a living room and a kitchen table, so that some environments are the foyer of your house. Right, it's everyone in no preparation. Show up, it's all good, whatever come, as you are. The living rooms, you know the next place you're hoping they move to. There's a little more intimacy and ultimately you sit around and chair a meal at the kitchen table. That's the most intimate setting, and so we're a kitchen table environment. It sounds like the one you guys are doing now is a kitchen table environment as well, and I agree. You know you get much bigger than that. There's just not time, there's no space to talk.
Speaker 1:It's true. Every man needs to be heard. What do you think, Sarge? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I was thinking the same thing, exactly what Mark just said, right, I mean, I think there there's a place for all of it, you know, for for Mark and I, at this point, you know we, you know we've I feel like we've emptied our cups so much.
Speaker 4:You know, leading and serving and facilitating and all of that modeling, right Um, which which is great and that's, and we need to do that Um, but we just happened to converge on a season where we were like, wow, we just, you know we need, we need, this is what we need and it and it just you know it's got. I think it's just God ordained this, his timing, and it just made sense. But there's certainly, as you said, mark, value to all of those and you know, and, of course, still participating in many of those other environments and you know, inviting again, facilitating, serving, modeling, and which is an important part of, I'm sure, fits into the five F's there somewhere, right Um, but, um, you know it's interesting. I think you know you were talking about how faith, you know the faith component is, is sort of the I forget the word you use the skin or the, the, the, the the wrapping.
Speaker 5:The wrapping the wrapping.
Speaker 4:I was thinking crust Mark's Mark mentioned pizzas. I was thinking crust. Mark mentioned pizzas. I was thinking crust, I don't know. But you know, I'm really, really passionate about, you know, a fully integrated life and and I think that that's, that's, that's what you're getting at and that's what you're talking about. Right, when you talk about faith being the wrapping, it's that, you know, it's, it's just, it is intertwined in every area of life. And you know, I know that in reading a little bit about unravel and yourself, um, you know, phrases like transformational leadership, you know, come up and that is something that I've, you know I've spent a lot of time digging into and fostering, particularly in my vocation, and you know, looking to both model and foster that. Talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that transformational leadership.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and before that, just to amplify what you're talking about, about this wrapping with the faith we don't want people to think faith is like, just like the Sunday morning thing. So it's a piece of my life, I just do it on Sundays. We want them to realize it's seven days, 24-7, so that everything they're doing that is the DNA that should inform all aspects of their life, right? So the transformational leadership it's interesting because that means so many different things to different people and we're not really trying to communicate to people that there's one way to think about that. What we really want them to think about in the context of transformational leadership is this when you are today is you're at a spot today and we believe that you could be much further down the road. And when you're finished here, we want you to be much further down the road. And when you're finished here, we want you to be much further down the road as a leader. And we're going to give you some tools to become a better leader and we're going to help inspire you and encourage you and raise your, expand your thinking of what it means to be a better leader. But it's not something where they go.
Speaker 5:Okay, this is the secret because there's so many books written about it and there's so many quote secrets to it. No one of us could process all the information out there on what it means to be a transformational leader, but it does mean transforming and changing from where you are today and that's the biggest thing for us progress. So if you're a leader right now and you're not effective in inspiring your team, okay, that's an area that you need to transform it. If you're not a leader who's well at investing in your team, or you don't do well in humility as a leader, or the list is endless then we want you to transform in that and grow in that. Now, of course, there's fundamental leadership skills that people need to incorporate, but then again, outside of that, there's so many ways people can grow and transform. So for us, it's more about progress in that area of a person, not like a finishing spot that they land on.
Speaker 4:So let me just being devil's advocate here. To what end? What's the end goal?
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's a great question and that's a very important piece to obviously for us to have begun with the end in mind. So, very simply, it's this to lead men into a growing relationship with Christ by equipping them for leadership and the pursuit of excellence. So the end is for them to grow in their relationship with Christ. That's the ultimate objective and we want them to do that within the context. This environment is for those two things equipping them for leadership and the pursuit of excellence. So we believe this much like a marriage.
Speaker 5:So if you've got two people that are married, neither come from a faith perspective and they go through a premarital mentoring environment or a premarital equipping environment, that's a good thing. They're going to have a better marriage than they would if they didn't do that. Even though they're still missing the most important part, it's still going to be better. Important part, it's still going to be better. So for us, if men come through this and they're not Christians or they don't encounter that relationship while they're in Unravel, we still believe they're going to be in a better spot along the journey because we've equipped them in these two key areas that hopefully, ultimately will lead them into that relationship. But that's ultimately what it's about. If they're not growing in that, then if ultimately we don't have men growing in that area, then we've missed the mark, and that informs everything that we do.
Speaker 4:Love it. Love it. Well said, yeah, thank you, by the way.
Speaker 5:I like that. By the way, one of the symptoms of that is back to my original point. So let's just take the marketplace vocationally. If you're in the marketplace, you've gone through Unravel and people aren't noticing that you've changed or different. You're now showing up better. If they're not noticing that, then that's a big miss. But if they are, then people are going to start to ask questions and it's going to create that impact and create that influence that we want people to have in the marketplace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that answer, actually, that Christ is the center of it, no matter what else is going on. I had my pizza pie. There's five F's. There's different ways to do groups. There's different ways to do groups.
Speaker 1:I have to admit, mark, when I heard you talking about this group size and some of the dynamics and what your pursuits were, one of the things I often wonder about now. Some of the guys in Victorious together we started this group and I didn't know them very well. You get to know each other, you get to trust each other, you feel safe around each other and the conversation gets deeper and deeper and deeper. Right, that's some of the group dynamics we're used to seeing, and what we really pray for is that we can just be beautifully honest in an environment like that.
Speaker 1:One of the roadblocks I've learned over the years is men's self-awareness seems to be a little wonky, a little fuzzy right. Seems to be a little wonky, a little fuzzy right. One of the early potholes that you're liable to fall in in. That group dynamic is sometimes what we you or I see in the mirror isn't what the world sees or what the world tells us we should see. Right, one dysphoria or another. So just what's your experience in unravel groups, with men's self-awareness getting in the way of you know, when you've got a group of guys and you can see it, man, you can smell it, it's, you're close, right, you can feel the power of the Holy Spirit, but it just it gets clenched up. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 5:I hear you and I get excited about. That's one of my really big things. It's like Henry Cloud. He wrote this book called integrity and I'm pretty sure he defined integrity this way the courage to meet the demands of reality. And you think about that for a minute, like how can you have integrity if you really don't know what reality is, reality and that can be? You think about those five F's. If you're not really clear about who you are and where you are within that context of reality, it's very hard to have integrity. It's very hard to move the ball down the field. So that is a huge part for us is we want men to learn to be able to come to grips with where they're on reality, and one of the ways we do that is not just with the questions, but it's when men show up. It's accepting nothing less than being prepared. Just a simple example One of the books we do on Unravel is called Thinking Fast, thinking Slow. It's a book by a Nobel laureate, daniel Kahneman, and it's not an easy book to read. It does, by the way, help us discover where we're not living in reality and where we tend to obfuscate reality and live in a different place. But as an example.
Speaker 5:You show up and someone shows you say, hey, tell me what your takeaways were. How are you applying that in your life? And you know the typical answer is oh, it's a good book. Or you know, I didn't really like that book that much. Or yeah, there was some good stuff and it's very esoteric kind of answers yeah, that doesn't work in Unravel, it's. You know, mark? Yeah, you know, we're really working on being prepared. Doesn't sound like you really spend a lot of time preparing your answer in that? Or we're not going to say it specifically that way. But then they have to show up. They know that when they have to show up they have to be prepared. So if you know when you're going to show up that people are going to not let you get away with the simple answers oh, it's been a tough week, man, or you know I'm in a tough season, or there's accountability coming.
Speaker 5:Good, that's right, it's. It's not good. You gotta. You gotta come with a prepared answer, prepared content, much like you were making a presentation to someone. Then it gets real in a hurry.
Speaker 1:Oh, we agree with that, Don't we Sarge?
Speaker 4:Sure do, brother it's. Uh, it gets real in a hurry. We agree with that, don't we Sarge? Sure do, brother, it gets real in a hurry.
Speaker 1:Mark Jordan can relate to this. No, I know, everyone else can't see this. Mark, can you see what I'm holding in my hands?
Speaker 5:Yes, I do see. Yes, I see it. I know that very well.
Speaker 1:Hammer and duct tape we keep it right here in the foxhole to remind us that God doesn't need us to fix anybody.
Speaker 1:That's one of our constants is if you come into a group with us, we are not going to cure you, right? That's herein lies that cycle for self-awareness and self-actualization, right when people come into the fruit that we really hope to see in them and in ourselves and they help us grow. But we literally keep a roll of duct tape and a hammer around. And it's mainly for me, Because I spent my first eight years in men's ministry just fixing everybody, you know, and it's taken me another 10 years to realize how unimportant that is and the list of priorities and what God, I think, calls us to as leaders. Stop fixing, you know. Let the Holy Spirit do the fixing.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you guys know this too. It's like if the other person doesn't want it more than you do, you're spitting in the wind. I mean, they have to want it more than you.
Speaker 5:And that's the whole fixing thing. Yeah, we can't fix anyone, but we can equip them and if they want it, bad enough, they will make progress, and if they don't, that's okay. This isn't the time, by the way, that's. Another big thing for Unravel is we do have conversations with men, that they get in it and they find out. You know, they're just not showing up and of course we have grace for that and we equip them. Hey, we help them understand. That's not going to work and if they continue that, we just say, hey, you know what? I think now may not be the right time. We'd love for you to circle back around down the road. There is no space to go through Unravel. Unravel 1 is 12 months long. We meet once a month. Then there's Unravel 2 and an ongoing 3. But there's no space to show up for 12 months. Not showing up prepared. We just don't do it. That's the idea. You have to want it more than us. We're there to do everything we can, but we can't make you do it.
Speaker 1:Facilitation takes a lot of humility.
Speaker 4:Yes, Mark, what do you find is the catalyst for men who come to Unravel? What is it that gets them to reach out to you, to show up and say I want to be a part of this, you know?
Speaker 5:gets them to reach out to you, to show up and say I want to be a part of this. They well, I said earlier, I believe every man is stuck in some area of his life. Okay, the men that show up for Unravel, they have a heightened sense of urgency to that stuckness if that's such a word they are realizing that this is really becoming uncomfortable. I really don't like this. And that can manifest itself in any of those areas that we talked about. The typical man who's stuck but doesn't realize it. They think everything's great.
Speaker 5:It's harder for them to have an encounter with unravel because they just don't feel like they need it. But it's the man that's feeling that pressure, that urgency, that pain that's the word pain. They're feeling the pain in an area of their life and going this has got to get better, this has got to give it. I've tried stuff and it's just not happening. That's the typical man who, in all ages too, you know, from mid twenties to you know, we've had men as old as you know, 70s in the group. So it doesn't matter the age, it's just having that pain and going hey, I want to do something about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we agree age doesn't matter. Right Sarge. Some of the some mornings you show up at Markman Weekendend P1 and there's everything from teenagers Well, maybe not teenagers, but you know 20-somethings.
Speaker 4:Yeah, late teens yeah.
Speaker 1:Right to 70s. Yeah, we agree. We agree, Mark, do you have a? I'm presuming you do, but the Unravel leadership, who is around you, supporting you and helping lead? How is it set up?
Speaker 5:Who is around you, supporting you and helping lead? How is it set up? Yeah, well, unravel is a 501c3, of course, but we have an incredible national leadership team. I mean, these guys are just unbelievable. The amount of commitment and energy and passion that they put into it is unbelievable. You know, frankly, they're the ones that really make the biggest difference, you know, in what we're doing at Unravel. So we have a national leadership team. Okay, you know, we have some staff. We have staff as well, we have an executive director and we have some, you know, operational staff as well to support that effort. But our national leadership team are the guys that are really making the big difference and really providing the fuel and horsepower to continue to move this thing down the road.
Speaker 1:Got it. How many active groups do you have going on right now?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'm glad you asked that. So let me first say we have Unravel. The way we look at impact is we have multiple paths. So impact one is we have something called Unravel Go. That's a six-session, if you will, individual self-paced content. It's not a group, it's an on-ramp. So we talked about earlier who will get involved in Unravel. Well, there's a lot of men out there that go. Well, I don't know if I want to make a year-long commitment yet. So we have Unravel Go. That's a very easy six-week, self-paced. We've had gosh. I don't know the latest numbers, but hundreds of men sign up for Unravel Go. Then we have Unravel Labs. That's paid curriculum. Unravel Go is free. That's paid content, same. Each one is six sessions. So it was like Unravel Excellence, unravel Leadership, and that's all online, again self-paced. Another on-ramp, easy. Oh, unravel Go was free. I liked that. I got a lot of that. Oh, let's do Unravel Lab. That's kind of the next level of commitment that I can make.
Speaker 5:Then Unravel One is step number, the next step, and that's the 12-month. Once a month, three hours is how long we meet, and then there's the work outside of that that occurs. There's a book a month, there's preparation time, there's some other things that we do in Ravel that take preparation time as well and we've had at this point over I think it's I think over 150 men have are either in or have completely gone through Unravel 1. Okay. Then we have Unravel 2. That's a six month for guys that have done Unravel 1. That's a six month environment where we just focus on leadership. Then finally, we have Unravel 3. That's an environment that we want to be long-term and that's something we launched not that long ago.
Speaker 5:So we've done the alpha groups, the beta groups, and now it's officially a part of our program and that is, think the inklings. I don't know if you're familiar with CS Lewis, jerry Artoken. They had a group at Oxford. They met weekly. It was called the inklings. So think inklings, but in this environment. So men show up inklings. But in this environment. So men show up, they have the skills. It's an ongoing, once a month group. Hopefully they meet for the rest of their life, but obviously they don't have to. They come and go as they want to and they come and they show up prepared to talk about difficult topics, because there's not many spaces to do that anymore, and whatever's important to them, I mean the most controversial topic they can bring up and they can know that every man in that room is going to be able to have healthy dialogue around it. Even if they don't agree which they won't agree, of course they can have good discussion around it. So it fosters and continues to create that fuel for growth.
Speaker 5:Just a quick history 2016 is when we launched the first alpha group in Unravel, where we tested it. It went well. Then we started launching some beta groups and then we just formed the 501c3 in 2022. Okay, officially that was launched in 2022. Early 2022 is when the 501c3 was formed. Our goal I'm being transparent, I'm always like man, it's kind of embarrassing to say because, like, really, but it's to reach a million men in 10 years. That's our goal to touch a million men in 10 years through what we're doing at Unravel. And I say that and I always offer that comment because I recognize it sounds impossible. You know, offer that comment to us because I recognize it sounds impossible. You know, and I know, I'm crystal clear that we cannot do that, apart from God doing what needs to be done to make that happen. We just want to do our part and so we're showing up, you know, doing the best we can, knowing that we're certainly not doing it perfectly, but that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1:Well, I love it. I was with a dear friend this weekend at his daughter's wedding and we were lamenting. We're both serving in a ministry. He's a regional leader for a ministry that I help out in with leadership a couple weekends a year and he was talking about the overall ministry goal of reaching 100,000 men by this time. And I could have this number wrong, but let's just say that people who have signed up for this, they're up to about 15,000. These are people who have actually attended a weekend and continue in some way. Long story short, we both agreed without even hesitating, just kind of smiled at each other, that the pebble in the pond for 15,000 men. You're way over a hundred thousand already.
Speaker 1:Oh, already Right, yeah Just just the Holy Spirit at work. Can we agree, the three of us, that God is so much bigger than our calculators?
Speaker 5:right.
Speaker 1:This and I love your goal. I love audacious, monstrously big goals. I don't think you should be embarrassed of the goal at all, because it says to me that we're a kindred spirit, because you believe in a really big God.
Speaker 5:I think to me, the more you understand like, the more context you have of what's realistic, then you have a much greater appreciation for what God accomplishes, right? So for me to think that reaching a million men in 10 years, oh yeah, that's realistic. Of course, that's a goal. We got a good goal. It's realistic. I feel like when those things happen that are so incredibly big that it's easy to miss, you know what God accomplished, so we're ahead of goal at this point, and it's really easy to be ahead of goal in the first couple of years because the numbers just are small, right.
Speaker 1:Everything's bigger than zero.
Speaker 5:I know, yeah, yeah, so we're way ahead of goal at this point. Now ask me in two or three years where we're at, because the numbers start getting a lot bigger to meet. To stay on point for goal at that point.
Speaker 1:We get it. We get it, Sarge. Any more questions for Mark. We're coming up on, I think, a good timeframe to pivot if we want to.
Speaker 4:I mean I don't. I mean I would love to just know quickly, mark, like a little bit more about you, your heart, your story. You know you mentioned you've been involved in other groups coming up and just tell us a little bit more about your journey of faith.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I love talking about that. I think about my journey of faith. I'm 62 now, I just turned 62 last month and I think about it like in three phases. Phase one is that phase for me where my salvation is secure. And for me I became a Christian at nine and not a lot changed in that until I finished graduate school. So let's say, nine through graduate school it was salvation is secure. That was kind of phase one.
Speaker 5:I don't, I wouldn't, you know, certainly not nine and 10, but you know, in high school and college and graduate school I wouldn't characterize as a lot of what we would think of the three of us is growth. It's phase two for me. I think I would probably use the word community. I think that's the first time.
Speaker 5:When I finished graduate school and got involved in this church in Houston a wonderful church I really became exposed to the first time that you could be in a community of men and that this could be like a really regular part of your life and begin to you know, not infiltrate but begin to impact, you know, all aspects of your life and that you could begin to kind of do this with other men. So that was that phase two which occurred, I would say, through. You know that, let's see, that was 85, 85, 86. And then I'd say the next phase occurs when we moved to Atlanta, my wife and I and then our children, when we raised there in Atlanta and I think that was the late 80s maybe, when we were in Atlanta and when we ultimately were part of starting this church in Atlanta, us and several hundred other people North Point Community Church.
Speaker 1:Is that Mr Stanley's church?
Speaker 5:Yeah, andy Stanley, yeah, what I began to there. Moving to phase three, which was what I'll call the service phase, I began to realize, wow, man, there's so many areas to serve and begin to really, you know, leverage the gifts I had and was so fortunate to be involved in there from the beginning, because it gave me an opportunity to be involved in so many launching and being a part of so many environments at North Point that I really began to see that this service piece is huge for your personal growth. Because you guys know as well as I do, when you're serving in these faith arenas and outside of faith arenas, you experience more growth, or at least as much growth as the people you're serving. In these faith arenas and outside of faith arenas, you experience more growth, or at least as much growth as the people you're serving. It's not like, oh, I'll do this thing for them and they're getting all. No, you're getting just as much as they are.
Speaker 5:And I think that service phase really kind of, I guess, created for me a deeper understanding of what it really means to make a difference in other people's lives. And so we ended up and then I think I've shared with you guys recall that we were then bi-coastal, you know, for the last 14 or so years, miami and Marina Del Rey. We were part of starting a church in North Hollywood probably I don't know would, probably, I don't know eight, nine years ago maybe. And so each step along that journey is reminding me of how big God is, how small I am and how close we are and how God touches. God wants me to do my part. I think that's the part where I sit here today and I go. You know what? God's always going to do his part. He just wants me to show up and do my part, and I'm on a journey of continuing to discover what that looks like, you know, on a daily basis.
Speaker 4:Yeah, appreciate that, man. You've had some experiences for sure. My goodness, that's exciting work and it's hard work. Yes, you know tilling that soil and you know setting that foundation to. You know, launch those ministries is tough, it's tough stuff.
Speaker 5:And you guys know it's so gratifying yeah, it's so gratifying, robert. Doing things that are your giftedness is married with a need, it's so gratifying. My career, vocationally, has been in investment banking and that's what my business has been around. I've done some real estate stuff and some other businesses, but investment banking has been my core business over the years and so that's given me, obviously, the skills I've developed in that that I've been able to use in these areas outside of that, and it's been very gratifying, you know, to see God using that to make a difference. I think that's the part that's humbling and gratifying every day.
Speaker 4:How did you find that environment in investment banking as far as living a fully integrated, faith-filled life? What was that environment like for you coming up in investment banking?
Speaker 5:what was that environment like for you? You know, coming up in investment banking yeah, for me there's. Investment banking means so many different things to different, yes, and there's also different segments of it. So for me, what you read about in the Wall Street Journal was not really the investment banking piece that I was involved in. That's the large transaction stuff. Mine was what we call the middle market, so think of deals that are sub $200 million in transaction value.
Speaker 5:That's deals that we focused in on. So it was more M&A, mergers and acquisitions sort of stuff. So what that means, and the reason that's important for context, is most of the people I deal with, and this was by choice. This is why I worked in a segment. I really enjoy working with business owners who have built something that's really enjoyable to me. That's who I enjoy connecting with. So my life, my vocational career, has been spent connecting with business owners who have built something. So what it's done is it's given me a very rich platform. One is it's given me a very rich platform not always, of course, but opportunities to make a difference in men's lives in that regard.
Speaker 5:Because why it's a pivotal life-changing moment for them when they're going through a transaction to acquire or sell or merge and they start exploring a lot of things in their life and I'm the closest advisor they have at that point in time, and so I'm a person that gets asked a lot of questions. So it's pretty cool. It's been pretty cool. My focus now is on unravel for the most part, but it's it's really been very cool. That's awesome, really.
Speaker 4:That's awesome, great stuff. That's good stuff, very great stuff. That's good stuff, very cool.
Speaker 1:So I have an idea Mark. Yeah, I have an idea to close, Mr Mark, you have a chance here. You have an open forum for telling in a minute or so, telling anyone who's listening about your passion, not only for Unravel, but the world as you know it, and it be that Mark's world in your lens or the bigger world at large. This is your free time to speak about whatever you'd like that you feel strongly about.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I could talk for hours, so I'm glad you put a limit on that. That's why I did that. I'm sure you've experienced that before, right? Hey, I did mean 30 minutes more. You know, if I think about what I want to leave men with today, there's mean 30 minutes more. You know, if I think about, like, what would I want to leave men with today?
Speaker 5:There's so many different things, but I think if I could think about leaving your listeners today with one thing, it would be you can have almost anything you want, but you can have everything you want, and life is about tradeoff choices that you have to make on a daily basis. You're always going to have to cheat something, Right? So you have to decide intentionally what you're going to be cheating in those areas that we discussed not faith, of course, that's the wrapping, but what you're going to cheat and cheat I mean loosely, not with a negative connotation and when you begin to realize that, you start to go okay, I've got to make choices in my life. So if that's the case, if I want to grow in this area, what am I going to have to do to accomplish that? Maybe you have to work a little harder for a season of life than maybe you have in the past. Maybe you're going to have to go to counseling. Maybe you're going to have to spend more time with your family the list is endless of what those things are.
Speaker 5:You're at today. Within that context of trade-off choices you have to make, you can be so much more because you're fearfully and wonderfully made and that's what God wants for you. He wants you to be more than you are today and he loves you the way you are, but he wants so much more for you and you can have that. And at Unravel Groups and the environments you guys have, that's what we're about is trying to help you continue that journey and embrace that journey.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that's awesome. We appreciate that and we're honored to have Mark Jordan, the founder of Unravel Groups, with us today. Mark, thank you so much. Thank you, guys. We put a way in the show notes that folks can contact you directly into Unravel groups and make the connection with you and talk to you more about the details. Just a little, the nuggets that you planted today and the seed you planted. Who knows what God might do with those, with somebody listening. As Sarge said on minute number one, we're hoping to reach one listener, one with a message that draws them one inch closer to our God. There you go.
Speaker 5:That's it, man. Yeah, that's all we can ask for listener one with a message that draws them one inch closer to our God.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 5:That's it, man. Yeah, that's all we can ask for. That's all we can ask for, amen. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for hanging out, thanks for having me on Good man, thanks for coming.
Speaker 4:Mark, we were made for more, so I would just encourage our listeners to don't just be you. Be you in Christ you don't just be you.
Speaker 3:Be you in Christ. You were made for more Amen, peace. It's time to get intentional Faith, family, friends, fitness and finances. Where do I have room to grow, improve, learn. Where am I stuck? How about you? I'll tell you what Unravel sounds like a great opportunity to open our eyes to areas we need to improve in and to receive the community and tools to make it happen. Praise God. Don't let this opportunity slip into the noise of your day. Stop ask God if this is for you. Praise God. Don't let this opportunity slip into the noise of your day. Stop Ask God if this is for you and if he gives you peace about it. Go check them out at wwwunrivalgroupscom. Lord, please continue to use this podcast to impact the lives of all who listen. I ask that you would bring hope and healing to each and every one of them. Meet them right where they are and reveal yourself to them like only you can do, in Jesus' name amen.
Speaker 2:If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it and invite others to the Foxhole. You can find us wherever you download your favorite podcasts. Be sure to subscribe so you know when new episodes drop, and please rate us and comment there too, as it'll help us get found by others who could benefit. Find, follow and like us on your go-to social media networks by searching Foxhole Symphony or visit foxholesymphonycom to make it super easy to find us. Drop us a line with feedback, questions, topic requests. Who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on a future episode. In the meantime, prepare to move, embrace discomfort and just be you.
