Foxhole Symphony

Presence Over Production: The Journey Toward Sagehood with Chris Bruno

• Steve Sargent & Mark Vesper with Guest Chris Bruno • Season 3 • Episode 53

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Embark on a transformative journey with our notable guest, Chris Bruno, a man on a mission to cultivate authentic male relationships. Having spent a decade in the Middle East with CRU and now leading the charge at the Restoration Project and Restory Counseling in Northern Colorado, Chris brings a wealth of life experiences and a unique approach to counseling and leadership.

We dive deep into the labyrinth of male relationships, unearthing various stages that range from being strangers to forming profound bonds of brotherhood. Through Chris's insightful guidance, we dissect the risks and rewards associated with deepening relationships and explore the empowering concept of sagehood. By focusing on honesty, courage, tenderness, and trust, Chris helps us understand how these elements can foster deeper connections among men. We also contemplate the distinction between simply growing elderly and becoming an elder, and how relinquishing control and mastering the art of listening can elevate our understanding.

This episode encourages us to invite the healing power of Jesus and community into our lives. We delve into the process of identifying and addressing areas of shattering, exile, and shame in our lives, underlining the transformative potential of bringing these issues into the open. With Chris's encouragement, we are urged to prepare to become elders early in life, to be ready for metamorphic steps when we reach midlife. By the end of our journey with Chris, you'll feel inspired to reevaluate your relationships and embark on your own journey towards sagehood.  So, join us in this exploration of the transformative power of authentic male community.

ReStory Counseling:

Restoration Project:

Thrive Marriage Lab:

Below are Amazon links for Chris' books:

  • Sage: A Man's Guide Into Second Passage - https:/

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Mark:

Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the transformational value of men in authentic community.

Sarge:

And our Foxhole men are equipped to build relationships that foster belonging, accountability and growth.

Mark:

Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in isolation and instead join us on the journey for broken to whole.

The Maestro:

Hello everyone. They call me the maestro and we are back in the Foxhole where we actively pursue belonging, accountability and growth through authentic relationships. No masks, no agendas, just iron sharpening iron. Mark and Steve are in the Foxhole with a new guest today, A mission-minded brother that loves the Lord and wants to see men coming together in more meaningful and purposeful ways. I don't know about you, but that sounds like the perfect guest for the Foxhole to me. Lock in those earbuds and open your notes app. This is going to be a good one.

Sarge:

Hey, welcome back to Foxhole Symphony podcast. I'm Sarge here with my good friend, mark hey bud. What's happening? A lot. You know this. That's the truth, you know this. But we're not going to talk about all the other stuff because, yeah, we've got a great guest today. We're pretty excited about this, very excited, especially excited because of my stage of life and, I'm just going to say it, of what I don't know.

Sarge:

I'm going to be good for a minute. Well, I'm just excited to have about an extra 15 years than you, not 15. Almost, almost 15, 12, 13. Yes, about that, right. So, like I mean, because normally normally, you know, as I'm meeting with men, you know, usually they're younger than me, you know they're coming along and I'm usually quite sad about that. I was meeting with a guy this week and you know, great, great man, and he's got little ones, he's got three little kids and he's in it, right, like he's in it with three young kids, and I'm like, yeah, but you've got so much time, you've got so much time on your side. It's such a beautiful thing, right, and so I'm just busting your chops, wow.

Mark:

You got a lot of time too, you two. Are you two, I'm sorry, our guest? And you are roughly the same age. Yep, if my math is good, that's right, which makes me 15 years older than both of you. That's right. How about that? Wow, you look great. Thanks, bud, I know you say that and you're a liar. It's all good, let's introduce our friend, chris Bruno. Let's do it. You want to. Absolutely, chris. Welcome.

Chris Bruno:

Hey guys, thanks so much for inviting me into this. Uh, busting your chops, banter, that's going on. Yeah, I'm enjoying myself just listening to the two of you.

Mark:

Yes, Well, the foxhole tends to be that type of place, so you are most welcome here. Folks, you should know um Chris Bruno. I will do his formal introduction in a minute, but we already gave him the award for most patient man and guest we've ever had, because he's put up with us with rescheduling this call too many times.

Sarge:

Countless.

Mark:

Yes, Just just enough times, but he decided to actually show up and give us a chance to do this, chris, for having some patience with us.

Chris Bruno:

Oh well, you're welcome. Thank you likewise for patients with me. It's not all been on your end, so it's good to be here with you guys.

Mark:

Oh, thank you. Well, let's let me um do my best at your bio and you can fill in blanks for us, but um, you are the CEO of the restoration project and the leader of restory counseling, right.

The Maestro:

Yes.

Mark:

Correct, Good, Um, so I'm going to back up a little bit. Uh, Northwestern University right, Communications and speech Master's went out into you work for crew, which we know as a crusade for Christ, right.

Sarge:

Yep Campus crusade is now crew. They changed their name a number of years ago.

Mark:

Yep, Yep and we're you. Middle East. Be more specific, when were you for 10 years?

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, we were um. My wife and I lived in Istanbul, turkey.

Mark:

Wow, no way. That's significant, yep, and you were there with crew. Yes, but he had a global job. He was like director of the world. Weren't you of? Of?

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, I was. I was in the director of the world. That would have been great and terrifying at the same time, but it uh, you know I was. I was in the campus ministry, uh, working with local churches there. So it was. It was a beautiful, horrible decade of my life.

Mark:

Wow, what well. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but I would love to Because, just because how much we know about Turkey and its biblical origins, traditions and foundations of that, that country sure is like Old Testament heaven, yeah. So, uh, won't go there right now, but, um, you became a minister at Seed Community Church and then, uh, I think I'm going to leap forward towards the restoration project and your counseling work. Help us just understand, kind of, what you're doing today and how all of this training and experience has led you to where you are.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah Well, so I, as I said, we lived overseas for that decade. We lived in the States uh, in Michigan and Chicago for a couple of years prior to that, came back to the States and went to seminary, which is where I got a master's in counseling psychology Uh, that was in Seattle. We lived there for three years and then landed back in my home state of Colorado uh, in 2010. And since then, have been giving leadership to the two organizations that you mentioned. I started Restory Counseling as just a single counselor practitioner and that has grown now to about, uh, a team of about 20. And we work here in Northern Colorado, but then also have a team that works across the world, basically virtually.

Chris Bruno:

And then Restoration Project is a ministry that I started with a friend of mine at Seed Church, as you mentioned. Uh, I was ordained there, he was already a pastor there, and that was during my uh, you know, graduate school, seminary years. And so what I was able to learn in counseling, uh, in the classroom I had a laboratory for in the church and my heart was for uh, really for men to restore and recover their hearts. And so my friend Greg and I, we kind of played around in that playground a little bit with those, with those guys at that church, and that was really the genesis of Restoration Project. So now that's what is full time, kind of taking up my. My energy is Restoration Project and Restory Counseling.

Mark:

Well, uh, just based on your bio and the details available publicly, there's certainly no shortage of things you're doing between counseling, writing books, doing podcasts. I mean, it's a it's a formidable list and and uh, and you must have track shoes on for all the things you're doing.

Chris Bruno:

Uh yeah, hiking boots most of the time. Right, colorado, that's awesome.

Sarge:

That's right, I get it.

Mark:

Well, um, let me connect some dots and sorry, you can help help. Just from the Foxhole Symphony and everything we're about right Belonging, accountability, growth for men, our goal here in the Foxhole is to try and reach out to one man, every single podcast episode that might touch their hearts with some word that the Holy Spirit gives us that we share. Right, yeah, and it wasn't hard and, chris, I think you actually found us, but the commonality and the dots to connect between ourselves and Chris's ministries and work are easy.

Chris Bruno:

Absolutely, it's well, it's there. I have three different books. One of them is called the Brotherhood Primer, and that is kind of intentionally transforming buddies into brothers.

Mark:

Right, well, that one grabbed me. And not right, cause it's what we do Tonight. Tonight, after we're done recording, I will leave the studio, walk out into my basement and invite strangers that come into my basement. Uh, now it's once a month, but used to be twice a month on Thursday nights to come and be with men, to be safe to, to talk, just to bring they can make a deposit or take a withdrawal. You know, it's kind of how we look at it. So we have a lot in common, is the bottom line. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, that sounds fantastic. I wish I was. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was available to come to your basement. That's not the main thing.

Mark:

Well, a lot has happened there in the last 18 years. It's beautiful, but, and it too is evolving. But that's not really what I want to talk about.

Sarge:

Yeah, and the buddies, the brothers, I mean that is. We talk about that all the time.

Mark:

Right Without using those words.

Sarge:

Yes, and it just it really resonates with me because you know, there's well, I mean, as you look at the list of episodes that we've had, there's so many of them that really reference that, that title and that and that topic. I mean, we've talked about things like you know, why would you not get together with a group of guys and go hiking right, sort of affinity based or, you know, jump on a bunch of quads or go go, you know, surf?

Mark:

fishing, or whatever.

Sarge:

Right, and we should. You know that's awesome stuff, right, but what does it look like? How do you get from from there Right Hanging out with your buddies or on the golf course, to, you know, to brotherhood, and we've talked a lot about that.

Mark:

And we call that brotherhood. Authentic community here, authentic community is the key words that we use where men can come and bring their truth and their pain and their joys and their challenges and their addictions and whatever else they have in a place they feel safe. That's what the basement is, yeah.

Sarge:

We'd love, we'd love, chris, for you to you know, just unpack that a little bit and maybe summarize or highlight, you know, some of the aspects or layers of that, that transition or that, that transformation from buddy to brotherhood.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah Well, so I'm going to actually expand it just a little bit more beyond buddies and brothers. So I kind of think about these relationships that men have in concentric circles, kind of like a target and so on. The outside of the target are what I would just call strangers, right, people that we haven't met yet. The next level in is an acquaintance, and how to go from stranger to acquaintance is just through an introduction. It's just through, like, I have met you, I recognize your face, I know your name, so you can become an acquaintance. We need to have acquaintances. We need to have people to sit next to at church, we need to have people to sit next to at our kids soccer game, right, whatever. It is just people that we have a sense that you're not a stranger anymore. But to go from acquaintance then to what I would call a buddy is that you've discovered that there's some level of common interest, just like you said that maybe we're going to go. You know I enjoy quads or I enjoy hiking or I enjoy fishing. You know I have a fishing buddy, a hunting buddy. Maybe I have a buddy who watches football with me. Those kinds of buddies. We have some kind of common interest. Still, there's not a lot of depth but there is at least contact, right. So it's, you know, the stranger acquaintance, and what transforms an acquaintance into the buddy is that is discovering that there's some kind of common interest.

Chris Bruno:

The next level in is from buddy to friend, and that transformation happens when you discover with your buddies that you have just a little bit more on the common interest. There's something about, and that's just common interest, but there's something about that guy that you like. There's something that there's like I like you, I like your personality, I like hanging out with you. Maybe there's some things about how you're doing life. That is also how I do life, or I want to kind of have you rub off on me and us learn together. That's where we become more friends, and so that's what transforms us from buddies into friends.

Chris Bruno:

But what transforms us then one more level to that is, you know, then one more level to that final target from friend is to brother is not just understanding that we have common life on life situations, but that I am going to begin to really share with you my stories.

Chris Bruno:

And I think so much of what we have in the world of Christian men is that we assume that by sharing with you my stories, I mean I'm sharing with you my sin, and in fact I want to encourage us to kind of take a step back from that and look at yes, let's talk about the sin, but that's not the most important thing about you. Most important thing about you is who did God make you to be and how do I understand who you are in the image of God and what are the stories of your life? Where that has been attacked or assaulted, where have you? How have you been shaped? What are the traumas and tragedies of your life, the highs and lows? Those are the stories. And so when we can actually start to share story with one another, that's where we get to develop into that deeper level of brother. And then you can have brothers who also play the role of friend and buddy and acquaintance and all those kinds of things I was just going to say right.

Chris Bruno:

You can't go the other way around. So there's the vulnerability and the authenticity that you guys were talking about at. The closer you get to the center of that target, the more authentic, the more vulnerable, the more story is shared.

Sarge:

Yeah, we often say you know it's the, you know the willingness to be seen, you know to be fully seen. You know for who I am right, both our woundedness and our giftedness. You know who we are in Christ and then to be able to be seen without any judgment whatsoever, right, it's just such a powerful element of that brotherhood is what we found.

Mark:

And one of the first things that came to mind when I was thinking of the target and I actually drew it while you were talking because kind of knew where you were going is the risks involved at each level. Right, and when you get from four to five friend to brother there's a lot of risk in that, and we have watched other relationships. I'll quickly tell you the story about me and Sarge meeting as strangers. But that friend to brother connection is a risky spot to be where two men have got to decide that when you start to really peel the onion back and look at the layers of tragedy, triumph, et cetera in your life, it can be a turnoff.

Sarge:

Yeah, there could be moments where you're like, no, I don't want to play with that one. I've got a big question for Chris related to this, because the so from friend to brother, and you said something really interesting and you said you know the, the, the piece about friend, right, there's something you really like about that person, right, and then, and then you get to brotherhood.

Mark:

And so can you get yet Like.

Sarge:

What about the brotherhood right, the brother that you really don't like? At the end of the day, you really don't like them, right.

Mark:

You learn some things about them that just are foreign to you or just don't feel, right.

Sarge:

And of course there's, you know there's all sorts of, you know, biblical guidance. You know, in the scriptures and you know to to navigate that and and come to a place of, you know, reconciliation and and all of that. But, boy, I mean, we talk about that too, right. I mean, you know we have these foxholes. We come together and we go through this, this process, and you know we're involved in other ministries where it is a brotherhood and there you know you have that and there is vulnerability and there is you have those elements. But, yeah, you know, maybe you just don't like listen, I'm not always all that likable, I'm just going to say it, okay. So, like you know, I'm not thinking of anybody but myself, no, but but truly right, like I don't know.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, I mean to that honestly, sarge, I would say, like a true brother is going to tell you what he doesn't like about you. Oh, yeah, amen, amen, he's going to that. Ultimately, kindness is having both the strength and the tenderness at the same moment to be able to give you a sense of what it's like to be with you. Well said, and then to call you to hey, are you aware of these things that you're doing that are rather unlikeable, and and I would ask you to be just kind of curious about what it is that is happening there for you. Yeah, and is that how you would like to be? So that's the kind of friend I want to, the kind of brother I want to have, as somebody who's actually kind enough to me to speak the truth in love in those ways.

Mark:

Amen, that's wisdom. Amen, I love that. Amen. There's a lot of time in the mirror required.

Sarge:

There, there's, there's just some self-reflection yeah, but the strength and the tenderness, right, I mean, that's exactly, it's well said. We've talked about those things too, and I think it's, you know, it's the courage, the strength and and the tenderness. That tenderness is so, so critical.

Chris Bruno:

So yeah, and I think, like what you're saying, there is it's so critical because if there's something about you that I don't like, I could be very and I don't like these words connected because of what they actually mean. I could be brutally honest with you, and I don't think honesty is ever meant to be brutal. Right, right, right. I think honesty is meant to be gentle and caring and as truthful as possible, without increasing your shame.

Sarge:

Absolutely.

Chris Bruno:

There it is, there it is. So let me be in relationship with you and be honest with you and, as I said, be strong and tender, be kind.

Sarge:

Listen, we just talked about this on our last episode. Right, we were just talking about each other. Those are the conversations we have with one another, right, because that is being in brotherhood. It is being in brotherhood. That's exactly what it is is that we have the ability. We're willing to invite that type of feedback that type of examination. And because there is trust, because there is trust we have.

Mark:

So, Chris, you don't know us. We have journeyed together 16, 17 years and we went through all five stages.

The Maestro:

We're in the middle of your target.

Mark:

And we have earned Sarge, and I are certified and trained in absolutely nothing except life, and I believe we have PhDs in life. We have. We have mountaintopped and valid with each other specifically and invited each other to to tenderly tell the truth. I wouldn't hurt this man ever love him, but we have covered some tough ground. Yeah, and, and, and, we're, and we're here. We're here to tell people about that and that's truthfully, one of the reasons why we feel we minorly, remotely qualified to speak out loud and put this out on YouTube and actually somebody on the on the planet could listen to it.

The Maestro:

You know, that's it that you're.

Mark:

You're in our kitchen right now for our relationship.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, that's fantastic.

Sarge:

So you mentioned wisdom, and there is a lot there. Can we, can we turn the page toward the sage?

Mark:

Yes.

Sarge:

Because this is I've been so excited to talk about this since our our phone conversation you know, in March.

Mark:

Initially no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it wasn't that long.

Sarge:

It was the summer, and so you know, because we've had these conversations as well about you know what does it look like to finish well, what does it look like to finish well, you know, is it is it, you know, retired to. You know Arizona or Florida, and get out on the golf, play as much golf as possible, and which all sounds great, right, yeah, and you know our good friend LC. You know Lawrence. At a weekend last year I think it was a year ago he said you know something to the effect of like, at this stage of our lives, you know 50 plus, call it. You know we'll never have more resources. You know both time and money, as well as experience, like why would we keep all of that to ourselves? Like that it makes no sense whatsoever, right, and I think the older we get, perhaps the more enticing it is, or, or, or maybe it's easier to believe the lie that there's we don't have much to contribute anymore.

Sarge:

You know, I've heard that, right, like, I mean, we have heard preachers talking about you know. You know Craig Grishel says you know, if you're not dead, you're not done, right, and I love that line. And it's true because and because we not only stand on the shoulders of those that came before us, but we need them. You know I need those people in my life. What's harder for me to understand is what it looks like for me to be that person in other people's lives. But connect some of the dots for us. Let's jump into, you know, this idea of sagehood, yeah.

Mark:

And you can plug your book, by the way. Please Go ahead, Okay.

Chris Bruno:

Well, so I wrote a book called Sage, which is what you guys are referring to, and and in the book, my hope in writing it was really to give both myself and other men like me a roadmap for what it means to grow into this second half of our lives with purpose. And so I think, as I'm hearing you talk like, I think one of the things that we have societally is that our greatest, this understanding, is that our greatest purpose is our production. And I've, and I think we've bought that line hook and sinker with, as men, that the greatest thing that I can do in this life is to produce, and I'll, you know, dovetail that with also like provide for my family. Those things are good, I'm not saying they're not good, but they're not the fullness of, I think, what God is actually has for us. So if our purpose is not production, I want to challenge a whole generation of men in our in our generation to say, hey, what happens if our purpose is actually our presence, that our purposes are presence more than our production? And if that is true, then please play a bunch of golf, but don't ever leave. But don't ever leave, stay Right, stay present, stay engaged, brink Cause.

Chris Bruno:

I actually believe that, that you know we haven't gone through what I think about like the masculine journey, but really the sage in my mind that final stage of a man's life is is actually the pinnacle, it's actually the goal. It's the goal to become a sage. It's not the goal to develop a kingdom or to rule over your domain or be a warrior those different stages of a man's life. The goal is to become a sage because, just like you said, that is the time in our lives where we have the most resources, the most experience, the most wisdom, the most sense of who are, who we are, our own identity. We don't have to prove anything anymore. We're not trying to measure up or compete with anybody anymore, like there's a subtleness that can happen inside of us If we do the work to become a sage. It doesn't just happen accidentally. And and I mean I think every single one of us is going to, is going to grow old. We're going to all become, you know, but not every one of us becomes an elder.

Mark:

Some sooner than others.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, the de-af sooner than others. But the choice I think, I think the choice for every man is do you want to become elderly or do you want to become an elder? One happens by, one happens automatically, one happens on purpose, and so that's where I feel like the purpose of our lives is presence. That's great, more than anything that we can produce.

Sarge:

Oh, I love that. Oh my gosh, and shouldn't we not wait for that? Like, like you know? Like I mean, shouldn't that also be, you know, in our twi-? Like this young man I was just talking about, you know, with these, with these little ones, that the actual conversation was about, you know, his work and they're not being enough, enough work, and how upset he was and anxious he was about that and literally my response was yeah, but look what you do have all this time with your kids, these weeks where, when work is slow, like, are you embracing that, Are you, you know? And it's a beautiful thing. And of course we, you know we do need to produce, Like you said, of course we do need to be productive, but, boy, practicing presence, yeah Right, Like practicing presence is oh my gosh.

Sarge:

I wish somebody told me that when I was 20. Start practicing just presence right. I'm feeling. I'm just now like let's just this year learning to practice this Right.

Mark:

But in I mean gosh, it's so good in so many ways. So, chris, this weekend coming up, mark Men for Christ is having a phase one weekend. I'll be staffing that, and what you're talking about made me think immediately of Sunday afternoon. There's in. There's a part of the weekend where you have a chance to be an elder. I don't want to talk too much about it, but that journey from elderly to elder or that comparison of the two, yeah, there's a tension there for me. Yes, first of all, I just want to say I feel it, I feel it in my chest.

Sarge:

So touch on that for a second, because what is? What is that tension? I think Chris could probably speak to this. But what is the tension?

Mark:

Because it's what I said, in false humility kind of. I said to him I'm trained in nothing.

The Maestro:

I'm certified in nothing.

Mark:

Right, that's it. I don't feel worthy of the elder's role or the sage role, yet I am called to it over and over and over as an elder in the church as a wise man on a weekend as a leader or speaker of podcasts, pretending I know what the hell I'm talking about.

Sarge:

Well, that's the thing. So I you know, and I think another aspect of that is you know to be an effective elder, right, no-transcript getting out of the way. It requires surrender, it requires being so present that it's actually it's not you, right, it's the Lord through you, it's you know, as you're speaking, whatever it is you're speaking, whatever it is you're sharing, whatever it is you're doing, you know it's the Lord through you. And so that staying connected to the vine and actually getting out of the way of what God wants to do, you know through his spirit, I think is such an important aspect, that and so for me that would be the tension.

Mark:

Right as a type A control freak. That's easy. Yeah, get out of the way of God. Yeah, exactly.

Chris Bruno:

Well, I think a good way to think about it, you guys, is that if we can just keep the elderly and the elder, so someone who is elderly has a lot to say, someone who is an elder has a lot to hear, and I feel like those two things are like, as presence is far more about what do I hear and what do I see versus what do I have to say. There it is, and I feel like the saying is what we typically get from a lot of uncontained old people who have a lot of stories and a lot of advice that we never asked to hear. So there's all this like biblical wisdom and advice about what you should do for the next mortgage and how you should have your you know, how you should parent your children and what your marriage should, all those kinds of things. Those come from an elderly person. But the elder is the one who is present enough with himself and with the other person to listen more, to see more, to wonder more, to have more curiosity. He's asking more questions and he's making statements. That's the kind of presence that an elder brings, that a sage brings, and at points he may come out with a scalpel and begin to cut away some, just very gently and tenderly towards some of the cancers that he begins to see, you know, in someone's life. But it's not in order to take the guy's head off with a sword. He operates with a scalpel, not a sword. And so that, I feel like, is what the sage presence is and does.

Chris Bruno:

And if he does speak, it has far more to do with words of blessing than words of fixing or words of advice or words of anything like that, like we just think about the sage words of God you are my son and whom I love and whom I am well pleased. What man doesn't wanna hear those words? And so what if we had a generation of sages who literally found ways to weave those words into the conversations to bless other younger men? And it doesn't even have to be younger men, I shouldn't say that. It can be anyone, and it could be man or woman, you know, boy or girl.

Chris Bruno:

But that sense of like, bringing those words of life to someone else, you have to be present enough in yourself and settled enough in yourself to not, like I said, to not have anything to prove. I don't have. You don't have to listen to me as far as all of my advice and all of the things I you know, the brilliance that I bring to this moment. It is merely like I'm curious about you. I'm curious about what God is doing in your life versus what I think he should do.

Sarge:

So beautiful.

Mark:

Your mission statement includes listen intently right.

Sarge:

So that is literally my mission. I mean, that's why I'm so excited about this. And when I say, you know it doesn't come easy, I mean this is not. You know, I'm practicing it. I've been practicing it now for 15 years. It's becoming easier and more.

Sarge:

You know more than norm, but in my, you know, my anti-mission and my worst version of myself is all about production. I mean, it's exactly what you've just said, chris. It's all about time for me, right? I don't have the time to be present. You're speaking and I probably don't even look like I'm listening, because I'm not, because all I'm thinking of is the 30,000 things that I feel like I need to be doing in order to be productive, to in a way that I think feeds my soul. But I'm actually starving, right, and so you know, that's my anti-mission. It typically ends in frustration and anger and it's just all this emotion layered on top of fear, really, right, the fear of, you know, what I won't have because I'm not producing, right? So, but you know, in my mission, I'm listening intently, I'm responding compassionately, I'm serving sacrificially and I'm living an unbroken communion with God. You know, just connected to the vine, exactly what you're saying, right, and I'm just, I'm working on it.

Sarge:

I love it, but it is. It is. You know, I was Chris is smiling.

Sarge:

Yeah, well, no you know, as you were talking and explaining that right, like what did the sage? Oh man, first of all, it gets me so jacked up, it gets me so excited when you say things like you know. Can you imagine a generation of sage like, yes, I can, I can imagine that and the impact that that would have on families. You know, communities, workplaces I'm thinking about my workplace. I'm thinking about when I'm at my best, I'm at my worst. When I'm at my best, I'm a sage. I'm going around literally saying blessing people. You know, I think of Z. You know part of Z's mission is speaking life-giving words of encouragement. Yeah, like those were. You know, giving life through your words, right Rather than death.

Mark:

Love your honesty. I do yeah.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah.

Mark:

See, this is what I'm stuck with all the time. This guy, right, don't you love him?

Chris Bruno:

It seems like a good guy to be stuck with, absolutely.

Mark:

By the way, there's I don't know if you could see here, did something else that you said that. Can you see what's here? I can? Yeah, right. So right here on the podcast desk, the studio desk, is a hammer and duct tape and it's been there. It's from a Bob, a band of brothers meeting, which is that Thursday night thing I mentioned to you From about a decade ago. I realized that the guys were coming and I felt like I had to fix them. It was my job to listen to them for a few minutes but then offer solutions. That's what I do. I'm a fixer. We have episode 21 was called a bias towards action, because that's us. We have a bias to move, and so this hammer and duct tape are simply here as reminders that stop fixing. We're not fixing anybody and that's how we roll it's. I know it's oversimplifying it, but that hammer and duct tape come out every meeting.

Sarge:

Can I go back to something that we kind of glossed over it real quick and, not to go backwards, we kind of jumped right to the end, right, like what does it look like to be a sage? But, chris, you mentioned something earlier and it was related to the work. You said, if we do the work to become a sage, right, and so we talk a lot about hard work. But I'm curious what comes to mind for you, what you would say about the work that's required to become a sage.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, so in one of the taglines of the sage book is this, and that is that if the task of the first passage of a man's life is for the father to find the man within the boy and bring him forth, right, that's when he becomes, goes from boy to man. It's the dad's task to find that man inside of him and call him out, call him to those table of men, call him into the company of men, grow into this man that God has already planted inside of you. Let's call you forth. If that's the task of the first passage, the task of the second passage is to find the boy within the man and bring him home and have a sense of like, am I at home with myself? And so the work is going back through, as I said, those stories earlier in the context of brotherhood, to go back through your life and find out where the shattering of yourself has happened, where the exile of yourself is, where the shame lives, where false messages and narratives have taken up residence in your life and in your heart, and to do the work to really kind of bring healing, invite the presence of Jesus into there, invite brothers into those stories and bring those shattered parts of you home, that disintegrated self back into the integrated self, and I love how Paul talks about this in the sense of the renewing of your mind. And when I was a child I act like now that I'm a man. I'm going to be so. We have to intentionally do this work. We have to step into the healing presence and power of Jesus through community with other men. I believe, and as we do that and as we tend to those parts of our lives and our hearts and our stories, that's where we can come home to ourselves.

Chris Bruno:

I think one author, the title of his book is the gift of becoming yourself, and I love that because that's actually when you think about Ephesians, chapter two. There's a verse. In verse 10, it says that we are the handy work of God, created in Christ Jesus to do good things, to bring goodness to the world. And that work that word handy work in the original Greek is the word poema, which is where we get our English word for poem, and so sometimes the translation is handy work, sometimes it's masterpiece, sometimes it's craftsmanship.

Chris Bruno:

We are the poetry of God that he poeted us into existence and everything in the world. Our battle is not against flesh and blood, it's against the powers of darkness that seek to steal, kill and destroy the very poetry of God in us. And so, if we can recollect some of those fragments of poetry that we've lost along the way, maybe we didn't know they existed in the first place, but we need to go back through the kind of the anthology, the annals of our lives, and recollect the fragments of poetry and put back together that original design of God and when he first wrote us into existence, that's when I come home to myself, when all those parts of me get to have a happy collection inside of my soul. That is, I think, what ends up happening when we are sages in like I don't have anything left to prove. I don't have anything left, not that I'm not doing things, but I don't have to compete with you because I am well with me. Yeah.

Sarge:

Yes.

Chris Bruno:

So that's kind of what I mean about that work.

Sarge:

So beautiful, so beautiful.

Mark:

Are you familiar with the Skit guys? Do you know who they are?

The Maestro:

No, skit, skit guys.

Mark:

No, All right, I'll send this to you, but in any case you're, I'm listening to you talk and I just can't stop thinking about God's chisel.

Sarge:

Yeah.

Mark:

The recollecting of that.

Mark:

So the Skit guys are two guys, two believers, who put skits out for churches to use, but nonetheless they have fun videos. I'll send you the one called God's Chisel. Bottom line is it's a story of two men the one is reminding the other that God made him the Ephesians masterpiece and that the world and he, his sins, have piled on all these layers. And God just wants to chisel away at that, to get back to, to recollect that poetry of the beautiful thing he made you. And it's a fun and funny and real story. We actually use it as a thematic presentation at some meetings that we run here in the basement.

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. I mean, I always love to remind guys that God is far more excited about your glory than he has worried about your sin. Yeah, he's taking care of the sin issue. Yes, attend to it, don't do it, and that has been taken care of. He's far more excited about who you are as his son than he has worried about where you've been or what you've done. So that that piece to me is like, yes, back to the chisel, like let's go back and recollect those parts of our lives that we have lost along the way.

Sarge:

Yeah, I love that, I love that. And so I imagine you know there's there's absolutely people listening to this episode that are going where do I start? How do I do that? And we talk about. I'm one of them. Well, listen, but we've been doing this work. I mean, we've had the privilege of doing this work together with you know so many men, you know all over the country for years now, and we talk about a lot of those weekends. But is the restoration project? Is that part of what you, what you got, what you do?

Chris Bruno:

Yeah, absolutely, I mean. So I would love to say this starting is not as hard as you might think. It is. Actually showing up to your basement in one of those Foxhole gatherings and one of the Vanda Brother gatherings and just showing up, that's a great way to start. Yeah, okay. So if it feels like the bar is really high, you don't have to. You know, every high jumper starts by jumping over a low bar. Let's just start there. So show up to something.

Chris Bruno:

But restoration project, what we do is we have, we have a focus on three different things, and every one of these has to do with a specific role that God has given every man on earth. One of them is fatherhood, one of them is brotherhood and one of them is sonship. And I say that because every man has been gifted by God with the fathering energy of that that he's just given us. That's what we're supposed to bring to father the world, whether or not we have children. We father our communities, we father our schools, we father our workplace, we father our families. Father, okay. Second is brother. We are brothers to. We are brothers whether or not we have siblings. Right, you know, I'm brothers with you and we don't even live close together. So there's that aspect. And then son, like I'm a son of God, every single one of us.

Chris Bruno:

So the work that we do is we have resources and experiences that we architect to help men kind of on this restorative journey of manhood, to come back to himself in that way. So we have fatherhood experiences where dads can bring their children and boys or girls we have different experiences for that and different ages and all that. We go into the back country, we do some wilderness things, but then we also have some at home things that you can just do at home with your own family and your own kids. So fatherhood experiences, brotherhood experiences, where we're taking men also to the back country. We did a float plane trip to Canada. We're going I am doing a sage trip around the book to Scotland in January, taking 15 guys over there to do some of this heart work around the sage material. So we do some of that brotherhood space where, like what is it like to be in the company of men, and then also sonship experiences and resources of understanding who you are as a son of God. So those are some of the things that we do and to get involved in that is just to buy the book, sign up for an experience, download some free resources that we have for you and just start.

Chris Bruno:

Start the journey. Show up to one thing, and I love it that you just, you know, kind of admitted that you're wondering where to start and yet you've been doing this for decades. I think the reality is that you know, I too have started and I'm still starting. Yeah, same that this is something that is a lifetime. It is something that I feel like you know it's people can say well, isn't that hopeless that you're never arriving at a destination and I'm like I'll go back to like, and so what if it's about presence and not production, right, what if it's about making it to a destination? What if it's actually about the journey and on all that?

Mark:

So that's what I would say to guys who I love it because I'm so goal oriented. It's disgusting Really, no, but but for this, for my walk with the Lord and for growing like this, I am absolutely prepared to do it till I take my last breath. It's one of the few things I've surrendered, you know that. And and it's hard, for when you were talking and I talked about I'm one of the ones, it's for my. I have four boys and some of them are in great relationships. These are men, they're my boys, but 37, 35, 27, 24, right, these are men and I would love, and I'm going to read the book and I'm going to understand that better because I'm going to show up on this weekend, Chris, in starting tomorrow morning, and be an elder, be a sage for strangers. Yet I could not feel after talking to you, I feel less equipped than I've ever been Perfect right, perfect and cause that humility is something I've need to practice, so so much.

Mark:

So, thank you. I just want to say thanks and I have a feeling we'd like to talk to you again. There's just some money and we need to peel back and to let you take us on a different type of journey. This was exploratory and really valuable for not only for me, I'm sure for our listeners. So we thank you for that, but I'm going to give you a ticket for a free invite back.

Sarge:

Awesome, no, really, yeah. This I mean what we've talked about here will absolutely shift my perspective and my heart and there's, and I'm so thankful for that.

Mark:

Amen.

Sarge:

Like just a renewed focus on presence, on practicing presence and the hard work. I mean, you know I dig, chris, I dig in the hard work Like every opportunity I get. You know my wife loves it. She loves it. Honey, let's talk.

Mark:

No, yeah exactly.

Sarge:

My wife would describe me as intense. I'm fairly intense, but no, and I, just I do, I love that. I mean any opportunity to heal, right, to heal, to grow to, you know, be sharpened, and but you know it, I'd be lying if I, if I, if I said that it wasn't, at least in part, tied to production. Because if I'm healed, Right, this to the extent of healing I experience, right, I can be that much more productive For God, right and so for God, for God, for God, no, no really, but like I don't, like I don't need to produce for the Lord, right, right, like I'll produce fruit, but it all of that Comes from just staying connected to him in present, you know, both with him as well as those around me. So for me, yeah, this is, this, was this was awesome, this was this was definitely needed. A 10.

Mark:

God's calculator is broken and. And not counting.

Sarge:

And you, my friend, hmm, you are God's Poema. And Chris, you, you are God's Poema and it's it is awesome to spend this time together.

Mark:

Yep, chris, anything you'd like to leave our listeners with. This is your, your chance to say anything you want on any topic you'd like, oh.

Chris Bruno:

Well, I I would love to say to anybody who's feeling like you guys were, saying you know like where do I start. I hear a lot of guys say well, it feels like it's too late for me.

Chris Bruno:

Hmm or can you, you know, can you teach an old rock dog new tricks? And, and I just want to say, like some of the most profound Transformations have happened over the course of history in the lives of people that felt like they were too old. And I just want to say, like the journey to sage you should be thinking about I think one of you mentioned this like you should be thinking about this in your 20s and 30s. Not that you're gonna step into the sage in your 20s and 30s, but you need to remember that there is a stage called Sage and that that is ultimately the direction you're going. If you, if you have a sense of what your destination is, if you have a Sense of where you're headed, then then start now and to do some of this work as a 20 year old, 30 year old, 40 year old, so that when you're in that midlife time of your life, you're able to make some of these transformational steps. Better prepare yourself then.

Chris Bruno:

But if you're 80 and You're listening to this, like there is still time because you're still breathing, I'm there is still an opportunity for you as long as you are breathing, I love it. You know, if you're not dead then, then you know if you're still breathing, you still have, you're not done right, you still have opportunity. So For anybody who's listening, I just want to say, like, please start. We need a generation of sages, and and I this is all other conversation that I'm not going to go down, but just for you to say, for us to say, like we we probably are in the state that we are in the, in the world that we live in today, because there has been an abdication of sages over the course of the last several decades, and I think that we, as a generation of men, can begin to become those sages and really Invest in the world in a different way. So let's do it.

Sarge:

Amen, amen, let's do it, let's go, I Love it, let's go. Tv 12, exactly. Let's go and be still and present, right? No, it's not, it's so good and I, yeah, and what you said I just want to reiterate, you know, to you know, those folks that are beyond us in years, that are that are listening, we need you, you know we need you and and.

Sarge:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely like. There's enormous value, you have enormous value and it's just needed. So plug in, jump in, show up, not just to the 20 and 30 year olds, but the 70 and 80 year olds. Please show up and and hang with us and, yeah, that's needed listeners.

Mark:

If you enjoyed this half as much as we did, it's a great episode for you too. We invite you to look up Chris Bruno, look up the restoration project, restore counseling. Dive in. We are going to be part of the. Not only we're gonna have a blue zone to be healthy here in our neighborhood in New Jersey, but we're also gonna be part of the sage generation. Here you have our commitment.

Sarge:

Yeah, awesome.

Chris Bruno:

Awesome, awesome.

Sarge:

Chris, thank you so much for being with us today. It was an absolute pleasure.

Chris Bruno:

Oh, it's been. The pleasure is all mine. You guys Thanks for having me on the show.

Mark:

You're welcome, peace.

The Maestro:

From Istanbul, turkey, to Colorado, chris has been learning, teaching and serving God's sons and daughters in such meaningful ways. What a great conversation about the journey that takes us from making strangers into acquaintances, acquaintances into buddies, buddies into friends and, and ultimately, friends into brothers. And, for those of us that are further into the journey than others, have we been intentional about doing the work to become an elder, a sage, someone who can pour life into those around us, someone who can be present? Lord, please continue to use this podcast to impact the lives of all who listen. I asked that you would bring hope and healing to each and every one of them, lord. Meet them right where they are and Reveal yourself to them, like only you can do. In Jesus name, amen.

Sarge:

If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it and invite others to the foxhole. You can find us wherever you download your favorite podcast. Be sure to subscribe so you know when new episodes drop, and please rate us and comment there too, as it'll help us get found by others who could benefit. Find, follow and like us on your go-to social media networks by searching Foxhole Symphony or visit foxhole symphony calm to make it super easy to find us. Drop us a line with feedback, questions, topic requests. Who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on our future episode. In the meantime, prepare to move, embrace discomfort and just be you.

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Mark Vesper

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Steve Sargent

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