Unveiling Scars and Redefining Manhood with Guest Jason Lloyd

Have you ever witnessed a man's heart laid bare, revealing the scars and stories that shaped him? That's exactly what unfolded as we welcomed Jason to our latest Foxhole Symphony session, a place where authenticity isn't just encouraged—it's essential. Together with our special guest, Jason Lloyd, we traversed the rugged landscape of identity, fatherlessness, and the pursuit of spiritual wholeness. Jason's candid recollection of his childhood weaves through our discussion on the deep-seated need for companionship and the profound impact it has on personal growth.

The absence of a father figure can cast long shadows on a man's life. This episode holds space for the raw and often unspoken struggles that come from fatherlessness and emotionally distant parenting. We share intimate stories that illuminate the craving for paternal support and the quest for acceptance. And amid the echoes of lost boyhood, we dissect the coping mechanisms that emerge when traditional definitions of masculinity fall short. This is a call to redefine manhood, to seek healing, and to acknowledge the role of community in guiding us through life's darkest chapters.

Concluding our session, we reflect on the courage it takes to chart one's own faith journey and the solace found in brotherhood. Jason's story doesn't shy away from the tumult of questioning one's inherited beliefs or the liberation that follows a true acceptance of self. We examine the transformative power of faith and the strength in shared narratives, urging you to discover the beacon of hope that can shine through your own story. Tune in, and let this conversation inspire you to embrace change, seek authenticity, and step into the redemptive journey that awaits.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the transformational value of men in authentic community.

Speaker 2: 0:14

In our foxhole. Men are equipped to build relationships that foster belonging, accountability and growth.

Speaker 1: 0:20

Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in isolation and instead join us on the journey from broken to whole.

Speaker 3: 0:27

Hello everyone. They call me the Maestro and we are back in the foxhole where we actively pursue belonging, accountability and growth through authentic relationships. No masks, no agendas, just iron, sharpening iron. Today, Mark and Steve are joined by a very special guest in the foxhole. He is digging in deep and sharing his story. You know what time it is, folks? Open your favorite notes app and settle in, Because we start right now.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Hey, welcome back to the Foxhole Symphony Podcast. I'm Sarge here with my co-host and good friend, Mark. Good morning, hey bro. What's my co-host and good friend, Mark. Good morning, hey bro. What's happening? A lot. Yeah, as usual. Right, it has been a busy week. It's been a busy couple of weeks. It has yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:12

Yeah, in a good way.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Great, it's been great. Yeah, it's been great.

Speaker 1: 1:26

But yes, it is spinning fast. But I think we're blessed to have a chance, because of who we're hanging out with these days, to chisel off a little crap each day so that God can have another chance at us. Right To just know there's a target, right, a good target that we're after, that we're aligned on where we're headed each day. So yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:42

I'm enjoying that ride with you Same, and, uh, I'm, I'm excited because he's got a rich story and so, um, you know, for, for those that heard the episode of the wild courage episode with Brian Bird, if you didn't hear it, go back and listen to it. Uh, episode 60, I believe, right.

Speaker 1: 1:58

February 23rd.

Speaker 2: 2:00

Check that out. Um, it's a. It's a great. Um, yeah, just a great conversation. Honestly, we've come to love Brian in a very short period of time. And so Brian said you guys got to talk to Jason, and so here we are this morning.

Speaker 1: 2:16

Why don't you kind of set it up To set the stage. I would just say that we are already kindred spirits. There's no question that Jason could hang here in. You know the Band of Brothers Victorious Together Marked Men. Yep, he'd get a t-shirt right away, sure.

Speaker 2: 2:33

If there were one Right.

Speaker 4: 2:35

Well, right, if there was a t-shirt. I'm large, extra large sometimes, right, you have to say does it shrink? Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:45

So, Jason, we are. We are blessed to have you and glad. Why don't you tell folks a little bit about?

Speaker 4: 2:52

yourself. Just give the uh the two minute bio. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm in my late forties. Um, I grew up and and still live in Boise, idaho, and um uh married uh 20, almost 29 years. I have three adults, no longer children in their 20s now, but I'll just say that God's always been in my life, but I don't think I truly started walking with Jesus until I was about 35.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Tell us a little bit about your upbringing. I mean again just reading a little bit about you and your story. Let's just start there. I mean, tell us a little bit about you. Know you had mentioned Jesus. You know God's always been in your life, but I know that that's shifted, obviously, like it does for many of us, over time. So tell us a little bit about that and even just the family dynamic growing up.

Speaker 4: 3:54

Sure, yeah, so I was the second son born out of wedlock. My mother was a teenager. She had both of us in high school. We shared the same father my older brother and I but they were kids in high school. They ended up having two pregnancies.

Speaker 4: 4:27

But yeah, we were born out of wedlock and my grandparents really played a of disappeared from my life, I guess for about the first nine months I'm not sure how long it was, but I think all of the stress of what was going on and I don't think my grandfather was very thrilled with the boy, my father and kind of banned him from her life and so she went off and lived with a friend or something and kind of spiraled out.

Speaker 4: 5:08

So I grew up under my grandparents' home with my older brother, who's also like I don't know one and a half, and my mother was the oldest of five siblings, so it was in a house full of kids oldest of five siblings, so it was in a house full of kids and yeah. So she came back and I think we lived with them a bit longer with her, and then she ended up marrying a guy and we went off and he the story goes is my mother got my biological father a little tipsy on some drinks, and got him to sign away his rights to us so that this new guy, the man whose last name I carry, could adopt us. And so my older brother and I were adopted by him and then that kind of started things, our family in all this, or even you know was there faith in the home.

Speaker 4: 6:29

You know, at that point, yeah, my grandparents were the influence there. My grandparents were Mormon, are Mormon and that influence, you know, carried on to us. I don't think that my mother and my adoptive father were all that religious I mean. I remember growing up I mean they're Mormon and I remember they drank and they smoked. It's not like aligned with Mormon values, but it was something in that that they nurtured with us boys and so we were.

Speaker 4: 7:08

My parents never owned a home, so they were like renting all the time and I just remember moving a ton and I was like a professional new kid and and everywhere we went it was kind of how do we plug them into the local they're called, you know, the churches, like a ward is a building, you know where you know various areas would meet, and so they just plug us into the community, the Mormon community and the youth community, and so that was a part of my life, a huge part of my life growing up life, a huge part of my life growing up. We went to church. I think most of the time parents just kind of took us boys and kind of dropped us off and had us do that thing. I wouldn't say all the time. They were part of it at times as well, but for us kids it was definitely huge.

Speaker 4: 7:59

Up until I was a deacon, I did the whole sacrament thing. I went to seminary when I was in high school, where you go and you know, kind of before school you do school for Mormon theology and stuff like that, and so that was the religion, or, you know, that's what introduced me to God, introduced me to Jesus. Yeah, it was the huge influence of my grandparents.

Speaker 1: 8:30

I know you talked about your grandfather just in some of the things I was reading and his influence in your life. Religion aside, I happen to be very influenced by my grandfather in my life. He's the best man I knew growing up. No offense to my father, my father wasn't terrible, it's just that my grandfather was a rock. Tell us just about your grandfather experience emotion for me.

Speaker 4: 9:06

Um, and I I guess that's probably I kind of tells you the the influence that he's had in my life. So he celebrated his 89th birthday two days ago.

Speaker 4: 9:12

So, happy birthday, grandpa. Love you, um and uh, yeah, he's just. My grandfather grew up in in New York city. Um, you know, he's just always been he. He's a, he's a big guy. He was always strong. You know, he's covered in tattoos. That's probably where I got it. You know, um, uh, he's uh.

Speaker 4: 9:35

But this, the man taught me unconditional love. Unconditional love. This man would not. He would do anything for his family. He would do anything for his family. He would do anything for his kids.

Speaker 4: 9:48

The way he talks about his wife is, um, you know, he puts her on a pedestal. Um and so for, you know, he's got, they got five kids and they all have pretty challenging stories. Um, you know, they've got one uh child who's just, you know, made all the right moves, has done everything right and I love this guy there's, you know, their son, david, my uncle. Um, he is uh, but you know, all the, all the kids have struggled and he's been by their side. Every one of them has taken them in when they needed taken in.

Speaker 4: 10:23

I mean, obviously, he took us in when my mother had both of us, you know, in high school. But I remember, after my family fell apart, when I was about 16 and at that time we had moved outside of Idaho and we're living in California and and he took us back all back into their house as teenagers you know some teenagers and my mom again and just was like no, you know, they were living in a place, they had their thing going. They're like nope, we'll move out of there, we'll move in somewhere else and we're taking them back in.

Speaker 2: 10:59

It's just always been my Family first Seems like just a true family first mission. Yeah, yeah. So I, I mean I'm listening to your story, you know, up through high school, and and the word that comes to mind is you know identity and and I just, you know, I'm, I'm listening to you and I'm going gosh, like you know, the, the moves, the professional new kid, the. You know, you know the, the moves, the professional new kid, the. You know um, you know the biological father, the, the, the name you took on. You know, and there's the, the rock of your grandfather. And I'm just going wow, like you know, I mean, I just can't imagine that doesn't all play up a part in you know some kind of identity. I won't call it an identity crisis, but like kind of who, who am I and whose am I? I mean, is that at all resonate with you?

Speaker 4: 11:55

Oh you, you named it exactly. I would call it a crisis, Okay.

Speaker 2: 11:59

Okay.

Speaker 4: 12:00

And you're, you're a hundred percent on the mark. Uh, what I didn't realize until much later in life, in my 30s, really is the impact that fatherlessness had on my life. So I never met that I know of my biological father. Biological father, okay, you know, he, they, they separated, I think after the second you know child out of wedlock, my grandfather. They had some conflict and and so he was never a part of my life and the substitute, my adoptive father, was a very broken man and he, I don't know that you know who knows how to be a father, but he definitely did not learn it the right way and did not express it the right way with us and it was so. He was very emotionally unavailable, scary, violent at times and so for me, you know, there was a part of pride. I knew that fatherlessness was a thing that kind of impacted us, but I felt like my older brother was the one who was, you know, let it affect him and impact him and made him all angry, and I was kind of like, well, you know, I'm just going to learn, you know what not to do through this whole experience.

Speaker 4: 13:30

But I was, I was kidding myself about that, I think, the identity that I ended up taking on was the identity of a bastard. I mean, I would even like you don't realize the power of words and putting something out there and declaring it truth. And I would, in a joking way I mean, I'm one of those guys who tries to, you know, always infuse humor and I think a lot of times to shield something else. But you know, I would call myself a bastard and, as a joke, but I was, I was giving power and truth to that, uh, you know, to that name and to what that meant for for my life.

Speaker 4: 14:17

Wow. So yeah, growing up I had no sense of um, certainly had no sense of being a son and what that even meant, and I didn't know how to be a man either. So, yeah, you know, given when I grew up, in kind of a time frame, we watched, you know, tv, and so the way I kind of formed the picture of a man and I thought my you know, my grandfather was this just really cool guy. And you, you know, I don't know, I guess my idea of man was Charles Bronson, chuck Norris, steven Seagal, right, right, like you, kick ass and take names.

Speaker 2: 14:56

Makes sense. That was my idea. And Bill Cosby, that's manhood, that's manhood. Yeah, makes sense Wow.

Speaker 4: 15:04

So I remember wrestling at a really, really young age and that was like the and maybe doing a little bit of soccer or something, um, but really one of the things that stands out to me I don't even remember how old I was, but when I was wrestling was I had my first match, my first meet or whatever, and my brother and I were both doing it and we, we were scared to go in.

Speaker 4: 15:29

Of course, you know we're scared to actually compete and I remember being in the parking lot and I you know this is my memory and there's fault and you know there's going to be some error in my memory but how I remember it is being out there and basically telling so Bob Lloyd was our adoptive father saying, hey, you know we don't want to go in, you know, probably some tears or whatever, you know, like we don't want to do this, and he said okay and just drove away. He didn't encourage us, he didn't push us to do it, he didn't give us any you know, kind of a talk no, pep talk, no, pep talk, no, it's I get you're afraid, or anything like that. He just, yeah, it'd be easier to just leave and we didn't do that.

Speaker 4: 16:14

And that's a weird thing that I haven't fully processed, but I mean there was no competing or anything like that or that I was doing in this cowboy stage to kind of like test myself yeah so I wasn't like the athlete, but my thing was, because I was a professional new kid, um, my thing became um and I, you know, I looked up to all these, you know, icons of manliness, um, anytime I went to a new school, my move was kind of to wait for someone to test me and then just punch him in the face and get in a fight, yeah, and you know um, and that's how I made friends.

Speaker 2: 16:55

Right, makes sense yeah.

Speaker 4: 16:59

The world is a strange place.

Speaker 2: 17:00

Yeah, but it's funny though, right Cause it totally makes sense, absolutely Like before he said it, I already knew it, bam. Like of course you did right. Yeah, oh gosh.

Speaker 4: 17:12

I've gone through over a decade now of learning what it's like to get healthy and to go back to all of that stuff that you know, identities that shaped me, reasons why I did things.

Speaker 4: 17:28

I mean, I don't want to say trauma, but that's. That is what it is. We all have it in our lives and, you know, not understanding how it, how it influenced me, what agreements I made with that trauma, how it impacted the way I present or show up in the world, but then also, like break that agreement and declare truth over those things and kind of reclaim it and not sit in my trauma because that's a thing that you could do as well. You know I've certainly done it is sit in the well, this stuff happened to me, so no wonder I am this way, and I could use it as kind of like either a crutch, an excuse, or even, you know, yeah, like I don't forget the word you said, but something like you know, you kind of you give it a little bit too much influence or weight or almost even dignify that trauma like you know, glorify it in a way that you know.

Speaker 1: 18:26

It's such a, it's a, it's a beautiful point. Look, there's, there is a time for that, right, and you, you've experienced it. The word wallow came to my mind. Right, we don't wallow in those traumas and in those experiences, but we process them, right, we wrestle with them we, we look at them carefully, we surround ourselves with people who help us develop a 360 view of how those things impacted us, and then we make a choice.

Speaker 4: 18:58

There's a catalyst that we've decided to move on right.

Speaker 1: 19:00

We've decided to turn to the light.

Speaker 4: 19:03

Right, we share that, we have that in common and for me that happens. The moving on happens through healing. Yeah Right, I believe that even in that time and kind of going back into that, the healing is still available for those areas, not just to recognize it and say that it happened, it mattered, it was awful, but I can move past it but like actually receive healing in that in those areas. That's, for me, what's more transformative and allows me to move beyond that into something else. Yeah, yeah, get it.

Speaker 1: 19:40

So can relate. So there's a few things I want to touch on. I'm going to leap forward. You've talked about this either 10 or 12 years, right, coming to know the Lord more clearly in your 30s. You've said you're in your late 40s now, so you've got this time. So, as you have walked through this journey, you've had some real traumas in your life. You mentioned your son overdosing twice, that you've gone out into the ministry field, right Just out into the world. I think it was Ecuador and India, I forget exactly where it was. Yeah, experiences impact. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that journey and the simple fact that knowing God and coming to understand the impact of your wounds on your life and the healing that you found doesn't give you a free ticket to a smooth ride at that point. No, it's yeah. Can you talk about that?

Speaker 4: 20:42

Sure, yeah, um gosh, I mean I'll, I'll try and go quickly through it. I mean so, yeah, I think up until the age of 16, I was trying to be it's I mean for a kid who punches other kids, to try and make friends. I was trying to still play as good a boy as I could be, you know, trying to toe the line, and my whole concept of being accepted by this God is hey, there's an expectation that you follow my rules and you're a good boy and you do things right. And it was hard for me to do that all the time right, it's hard for any of us to do that all the time. So at the age of 16, it culminated in a real mess in our house. Our house was a mess, but it ended up me getting thrown through a closet, my older brother stepping in, getting his nose broken through a closet, my older brother stepping in getting his nose broken and, um, you know us having to clean up blood on the ceiling and on family pictures, and and then going to the hospital and telling them and everyone else that it was me that broke his nose because we were wrestling, and it was just like everything was falling apart around us and so I ended up making a bluff in some argument that I was going to run away or leave the house and my adopted father at the time said I dare you go for it. And I took that as permission and it's not like I went out and lived on the street and kind of figured things out. I had an aunt who lived in a different city and she took me in, my cousin and her and her husband. They took me in and I lived with them for about nine months and in that time that was part of the time when we were living in California because we left when I was about in middle school and in the nine months my, my mother's marriage with him just uh, it ended and she was going to get divorced and move back to Boise, idaho. And when she called me, uh, I was like okay, yeah, I'm in, because I think I'm a little bit too much of a handful for my aunt and my um, poor uncle anyhow, and and and the reason why I guess I bring that up is like I completely took a departure at that point At 16 and when I moved out it was kind of like what am I doing? And stopped trying to be the good boy and I took a hard turn left and decided you know what, I'm going to try a different route. And so that's when I started drinking for the first time.

Speaker 4: 23:35

Right after I moved back to Boise, idaho, I started smoking cigarettes because I thought that'd make me, you know, tough. Um, tried smoking weed the first time, and what have you. So I, I ended up, uh, I ended up just going down really quickly. I actually it was. I mean, it was in high school. I got pulled in by the counselor or something at some point because I would show up to class. I'd roll up my, of course I had a leather jacket. I rolled up my leather jacket, put it on the back of the floor and I took a nap in the middle of class trying, trying to be this tough guy. And, um, I ended up getting talked to by my counselor, uh, to hey, you have two options we either kick you out and you never get to come back, or you can willfully withdraw and then you, when you get your act together, you can come back to school. And so I mean, I realize now they kind of tricked me, because it's easier for me to drop out myself than them make a case to kick me out of school and expel me. But that's what happened. I dropped out and I didn't know what I was going to do. I think I was 17 at the time and not going to school, not going to finish high school.

Speaker 4: 24:56

And then I met my wife by just, I'll say I won't say chance, I'll say you know God's grace and design, thank you, lord and intervention. I met my wife. Yeah, thank you God. For the first time I had, I guess, purpose, or at least I had someone who cared, you know, someone who was invested. And I'm not saying that my family didn't, but I certainly didn't feel it and it was probably because I was just such a pain, I was difficult. But yeah, I met her and you know, she grew up agnostic.

Speaker 4: 25:37

We get married at 18, by the way, we get married, we start having our. She gets pregnant, I think at 21. We were 21. We end up getting baptized a little while later. I think she was actually pregnant with our third when we actually got baptized. But at that point in time I'm like, okay, well, this is my thing, and now I'm Christian and I'll listen to Christian rock on the radio and I'll try and do good again and get back in my lane and be a good boy, and that only lasted for so long. You know, those things that shape my identity, those agreements that I had. I actually had new ones, more complicated ones, by that time. By that time I had met my biological father. Actually, the first time I met him was on my wedding day.

Speaker 2: 26:30

Wow.

Speaker 4: 26:34

And you know he's a complicated man and but what I learned from him and um kind of his story, what I accepted and kind of internalized was is that, um, oh, I come from him, no wonder I'm so complicated.

Speaker 4: 26:52

Um, and I, and I found my, my last name, my biological last name. Here's another agreement I made and an identity that I um assigned to myself. So my biological last name is dick, and I would make jokes like kind of like I did, like I'm a bastard, I would make jokes that, well, I'm just a, and of course I was like kind of doing the double meaning. But also there's things that come along with that that you know I, um, I I indicted my father, not knowing you know my biologic father, not knowing him super well, but knowing parts of the story, his version and other people's version gave him the indictment of well, he's a, a roamer, a gigolo, you know, has a lot of partners not really faithful. That's in my blood and so that's who I am. I'm just a dick, and so that was like another layer of um identity that I accepted that played out in really, really awful and damaging ways.

Speaker 2: 27:59

Uh, later in my life, later in my thirties- Wow, wow, wow, man, I, I, there's so much there. We could spend probably weeks unpacking that. I mean even just, you know, meeting your biological father on your wedding day. I mean that alone, right, I mean there's so much there. But thank you for that. Yeah, that context, and I would love to go even further and continue that story and how it played out, if you're open and willing to do that. But before we do, I'm just curious. I mean, so you, you know you go to this Bible study, you sort of you know. So you, you, you know you go to this Bible study, you sort of you know you get baptized with your wife and you, you start this new, you know, forging this new faith path with Jesus. And I'm just wondering, you know, having, you know, grown up in Mormonism and your family and your friends are Mormon, like, is there more to that story? Like what, what is that? What does that look like? Or what does that entail?

Speaker 2: 28:58

And I certainly don't want to make something out of nothing, I'm just curious if if there were, if that was, you know, if that was hard, if that was challenging, if that tested relationships, or or maybe it didn't.

Speaker 4: 29:11

Well, my, my grandparents are still very much devout and one of their children, my Uncle David, is still very devout and involved. But I think by that time the rest of my grandparents' kids, they left at church. My mother has since returned, you know, they left at church, my mother, my mother has since returned, but, you know, I don't think it was new for them to have some, you know of the family leave the church. Okay, Got it. And so so I wouldn't say that there was like all this shock and hey, you're cut out, and um, you know, and I'm doing my thing, and my cousin at the time actually the one that I lived with when I was, when I moved out of the house, um, she and I are like brother and sister and um, anyhow, she kind of started this path before I did and kind of going down this, this road, so, um, so I had her, um, and she's got the same thing, you know, as me. You know those ties and that upbringing, although I don't know that her mother and, and you know, was as involved. But but I would say to your question one was it hard? Yes, it was very hard.

Speaker 4: 30:27

Um, what I had believed is that the only unforgivable sin was apostasy. Okay, you could murder and still be forgiven. You know, you've got like these three tiers of heaven and I'll at least slip into the bottom one, um, and. But the one thing that was unforgivable was to deny that church. And so I could have like just been, I could have just let that simmer over there and not acknowledge it and kind of still done my thing and probably had that as my backup plan, I think. But that's not, it's not who I am.

Speaker 4: 31:11

And so when I made a decision, I, I made it formal, I contacted the ward, kind of the governing leadership of my area, and I basically said hey, I know for no longer follow this, I don't believe it's true, and so I need you to excommunicate me. And for me I was like I'm putting a stake in the ground and I'm I'm making this real, I'm not keeping it on the back. I know that there's a lot of inactive we call them Jack Mormons who just kind of like I don't do it, but you know, at the end of the day I'll slip in. But for me I was like no, I have to make a real statement and not have a backup plan.

Speaker 4: 31:59

This is my plan going forward. This is what I believe. My salvation isn't based on my works, my doing, anything, you know. So, yeah, that was the hard part, not the what I heard from friends or family or anything like that. The hard part for me was just taking that step because I was like, if I am wrong, whoo, yeah, yeah, yeah, an eternal mistake, an eternal mistake.

Speaker 2: 32:29

You know what's interesting, jason. I can't help but connect that to the wrestling match, like I just I, I'm going back and I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, pulling up to the wrestling match and the sort of non-competitive nature and sort of. You know, your, your, your adopted dad, going, okay, you don't want to go in, let's, you know, kind of take the easy way going, okay, you don't want to go in, let's you know kind of take the easy way, and and and. And I'm just, and you know, fast forward to this point in your life, this mile marker, where you had a, an enormous decision to make, and the easy way would have been to just, like you said, just just kind of, you know, be john, yeah, be john, right, and and, and you didn't, you didn you know. Be John, yeah, be John Right, and and.

Speaker 2: 33:16

And you didn't, you didn't. You know you were like, no, I can't do that again. You know I can't do that. I've got to. I got to put a stake in the ground. I've got to step out of the boat. I've got to, it's, it's, it's all or nothing. I'm walking into the match, you know, and um, I just wanted to point that out, like I just, I don't know, just just kind of occurred to me that you had a choice to make and you and you chose the hard one.

Speaker 4: 33:41

Wow, Well, I, yeah, I mean you saying that stirs something in me. Um, I want that to be true. Um, I've not made that connection.

Speaker 1: 33:53

Yeah, connect, connecting the dots. Some days are easier when you have friends that can hear your story and look at it.

Speaker 2: 33:59

And again, and maybe it's nothing more than you know, again, like you knowing in your heart of hearts, that pulling away from that match was probably not the right thing, right Like leaving it unaddressed wasn't the right way and and sort of almost like this little seed of injustice that was planted. And you know, subconsciously, years later, you know there, there you are saying, well, I, yeah, you know, no, this, this needs to be addressed, you know, and um, so anyway, I like it.

Speaker 4: 34:36

I mean, one of the things that I have discovered is part of my true identity is I am a fighter.

Speaker 2: 34:46

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 34:46

I don't know why God made me that way, I think primarily. Well, let me rephrase that I do know why we live in a battle. We all do. There's that part. I mean, our God is a warrior, and so that is a part that we all bear the image of.

Speaker 4: 35:07

But for me particularly, and in my story, I don't know why, it had been a thing, you know, punching kids in high school and, by the way, I'm not a tough guy, I was a wannabe tough guy. So I'm not on here proclaiming that I am something that I'm not, but there has been something in me, a fight, and it's expressed itself in negative ways. Right, yeah, but yeah, even like who I looked up to, what I thought like, you know, represented manhood in a, you know, quote, unquote toxic way, but but I, but I still even like as as an adult, my like as a sport, as part of being, uh like, in shape, I, I took up boxing. I, I did, eventually, I, I, I trained jujitsu for four and a half years. I competed in jujitsu. I didn't win every match, it wasn't awesome. I don't have mantles full of trophies, but fighting in that sense has been a part of my story, but I think it was meant for something like that moment that you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 36:19

Yeah, yeah, Well, and I imagine it's played out the rest of your life. I would imagine that that that theme of you know, fighting for good, fighting for your family, right? I mean, you know it's sounds like going back to Mark's question a little bit, like you know it wasn't all roses and unicorns and rainbows I mean, you know you start this faith journey, you're raising a family. You know you talked a little bit, you touched on a little bit. You know sort of the challenges that come with the identity you maybe took on in your biological father, as you kind of went off with this. You know your family, so maybe continue that story. You know sort of what played out and what played out. And you know I'm curious to know, um, you know who else you maybe looked to and and who taught you to to really be a real man. You know a man of God.

Speaker 4: 37:24

Yeah, yeah, um, okay, well, yeah, I think the I mean the way it played out. The way it played out it didn't go that well for me at first and unfortunately I mean yeah, unfortunately it caused a lot of pain for those that are closest to me, my brokenness, and you know I sought validation in all these areas.

Speaker 4: 37:53

I did see, I jumped into the identity of you know. Now I'm no longer this, the skinny, fat guy, you know, as I got in my twenties and started like moving it, you know, beyond that cowboy phase, I was trying all these things, doing all these things. I got in shape. I'm an okay looking guy, you know, and I craved validation. It was insatiable for me and a lot of it was just being the guy. Fortunately, I was doing great at work. I was excelling and moving up through the ranks at work. I had a beautiful wife, three kids. My kids were all, um, they were all angels before they were teenagers. You know, Um and uh and uh, uh.

Speaker 4: 38:47

And I, I started getting the attention of people. I traveled a lot for my job and, um, that validation. I needed the validation and I needed especially the validation of women and unfortunately, because of the you know, some of that identity that I'm just a dick, you know, and this is part of who I am and what we do I convinced myself that I could love my wife, but I also had these needs and so I was unfaithful a few times to my wife and you know, at the time I felt I made some, you know of like this is never going to happen at home, it's just something that has happened a couple times on the road. And it's going to sound really dishonest to, I think, probably a lot of your listeners to say that I still love my wife at the time, but I had somehow convinced myself that I could have this too or that I needed this too, and of course it was a lie and you cross that line. And then eventually you cross that line. I set myself some guardrails and I crossed that line at home. I set myself some guardrails and I crossed that line at home and I had more of an emotional affair with a woman near home and so I started to question all sorts of things like hey, we got married when I was 18. I was a different person, what am I thinking? And all this stuff. And so I almost completely destroyed her family. I definitely wounded my wife more than anyone has ever wounded her that I can think of, ever, and it's unfair to to her to say this, but I think you know there's something about the strength of my wife's heart and the love that she has and her capacity for forgiveness, to why she was meant to be for me and I was meant to be for her. I don't know, that seems like she got the raw end of that deal, but yeah, for her. I don't know, that seems like she got the raw end of that deal, but, um, we get, we came to a moment, uh, you know everything's exposed, and um, I don't know why, but she didn't say leave, Wow, and um, at that moment, you know, I, we had, I mean, I'm doing all these things and I'm in a, I'm part of a, you know, small group, Bible study, this, and that you know, I'm still BS in my way through all of those things.

Speaker 2: 41:46

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 41:47

But I had this lie and but we do. I mean, that was the grace of that situation is we do have that community and we reached to them. And that was a point for me to say. Whether or not I cut and run and essentially do to my kids the same thing that was done to me, I continue that legacy of fatherlessness. I cut them off, I leave, I break up this family, at least part-time. I cut them off, I leave, I break up this family at least part-time. And that was I mean.

Speaker 4: 42:38

What I've come to realize is that is some of the tactics mastery of tactics of the enemy that comes against all of us and wants to see us destroyed is to hey, you know what I'm going to turn you into, who you hate. I'm going to turn you into that father who abandons their kids and abandons their family. And I was. I was on the path of becoming who I hated, and I don't. I'm not saying that I hate my biological father. It's just that he wounded me in a way that he didn't know, and I don't. I'm not saying that I hate my biological father. It's just that he wounded me in a way that he didn't know and it had such an impact and a mark on my life.

Speaker 1: 43:00

Sure.

Speaker 4: 43:01

That for me it was. It was something that I carried and I hated that. I mean, like, even watching this is the irony of this even watching movies where someone's unfaithful, I'm like I hate that person, like I don't even want to watch this, that person. But that's, that's me, that was me and I was becoming, I was going to become that person, like permanently, and I would have. It would have destroyed me, it destroyed my, it was destroying my wife, for sure, but it would have destroyed me as well. And at that point I chose, I made a decision, kind of like that you know, I'm excommunicating myself, I'm making this. You know, I made the decision I'm going to fight for my family. And that sounds real heroic.

Speaker 4: 43:46

When I was the one who screwed things up, I didn't want to make sure, you know, but it was my point, it was the time to like you're either this is going to be a done deal or you can fight.

Speaker 4: 43:59

And so I made a point to fight and it was, and that started it. Um, and look, it was a long road to heal my, my wife's heart, to build back trust, the transparency that I had to just to have and the love that I had to show her and you know, I went a shift from being just punishing myself and his self-hatred and being like just feeling like garbage every time. You know she would explore her pain to be able to all of a sudden come around and be entered into that and be part of her healing. But this was like a seven-year journey before we could even get to that part. That pain is so deep and it still sometimes surfaces. But I had to receive healing in those areas that led me there. I had to accept forgiveness hers, my Savior's, myself in order to be strong enough to then be invited into being part of her redemption story.

Speaker 4: 44:59

I know that I'm kind of going through this fast because there's tons obviously that was involved in it, but that was when, I believe, I became a Christian and I don't even know that I want to say it. That's when I became a follower, a Christian.

Speaker 1: 45:17

That's when and I don't even know that I want to say that's when I became a follower of Christ. Yeah, Fair enough. Yes, Were you in small group, in small?

Speaker 4: 45:27

men's community. At this time in the healing seven years, yes, look, I ran to the stuff that worked for me. So at that point, when I decided to turn around, I went back to be a good boy and start doing the things. And so, yeah, we started to get small group stuff going. We opened our home for the first time in this seven-year period to host, and I'm like I don't know enough about the Bible to be hosting anything, and I'm like I don't know enough about the Bible to be hosting anything. You know, if these people knew who I was, they'd be like you are such a phony and fraud, like why are you even acting? You know, but I was the worst of them, you know, and so I was fully qualified to do that, and that's about the time that I met.

Speaker 4: 46:11

So my world fell apart, but at the same time, was starting its redemption journey in 2012. And I met Brian Bird in 2013. And he introduced me. Well, he introduced me to John Eldridge and the book Wild at Heart, and this was a version of the gospel that I was not aware of, I had never heard. It didn't make any sense to me.

Speaker 4: 46:41

Who's this Jesus that these guys are talking about? This Jesus actually sounds like somebody I'd want to follow. This isn't the stained glass, wispy haired, all white robe Jesus. This Jesus is a fighter, like what's in my heart. That's who this is and this is a guy I would follow. This is a guy I would follow into battle. And so it was just different for me what he introduced me for and that's why it was a real big milestone and formed it and it shaped my relationship, my ongoing friendship, my brotherhood with Brian. But yeah, in the beginning it was doing all the things and kind of trying to be that guy. But you know, there's all the pitfalls in that it didn't work the first time, it didn't work the second time, second work, third time.

Speaker 1: 47:42

Take this journey. You just took us on and now you're excavating, right. You've done, you're doing hard work. You're meeting with walking with other men. You're you're showing, I'm I'm sure, other men what it's like to do this. So your honesty and transparency are a tonic for many men out there who have that sensation of I'm not worthy, god couldn't love me, you can't love me, I can't love myself. It starts in the mirror and just gets worse and worse and worse. But you're living out the promise of letting other people know, putting your story out in front of the world and saying you know I'm with God. This journey I refuse to take on my own. I trust and believe in the creator of the universe, the one true God. He's made all the difference in my life, and blank is Jason's story. So can you help us with that part what it's like to walk with your Wild Courage group and any other men that you're walking with today?

Speaker 4: 48:48

and what a difference it's made.

Speaker 4: 48:50

Yeah, yeah, I think in that kind of the you know, uh, the journey that I'd done it in the seven years and even then some I was, I was part, you know I was, I was on the leadership team for the men's ministry and the church that I was going to and I was part of all these communities and I did, I did a lot of these things, but it's still at the time it was kind of like striving and kind of earning it. And, you know, being the guy and being the good boy With Wild of Courage came at a time that, fortunately, my character had been forged enough to kind of go through what you know. But we had kind of some turmoil in our church. We had, uh, um, uh, you know, a leader in the church, actually the you know, we just let me just say that it was, it was bad, the leadership, the part of the men's community that I had and I'd been walking with for about two years and I thought we were being honest and doing all the things, but we weren't. But then we find out our leader was basically doing what I was doing seven years ago. You know, um, living a lie and, yeah, living real life and struggle and didn't bring those things to that circle. That's the unfortunate part was that whatever he was going through, he didn't bring it to that circle. He wasn't honest about it. He couldn't have gotten his brothers behind him. He wasn't honest about it, he couldn't have gotten his brothers behind him. And so it led to all this me walking away from that and also just kind of, you know, I was angry, I felt betrayed, I was bad at the situation because it involved someone that I cared about.

Speaker 4: 50:33

But also, like, here was my brotherhood, that kind of shattered, and Brian and Jeremy and Mike Doc, we call him and Nick, we're all starting this wild courage thing. And I was invited to like the first fire and I went but I was kind of like, hey, I'm doing my thing over here, I got all this responsibility, I'm part of the men's leadership, blah, blah, blah. I do these boot camps and whatever, but I'll come to your fire when I can. And so that's kind of where what it was. And I was invited, totally accepted. But then when my brotherhood fell apart, you know, call up Brian and I'm like I'm coming to your fire. And they didn't know it. But I was like you guys are going to be my guys and Brian had always been. He'd always been, you know, since 2013,. Love that guy, um, but I showed up there and I just showed up in myself and good choice.

Speaker 4: 51:28

I think the thing that those guys did, you know, all of a sudden, that wasn't like in any sort of leadership. There wasn't any expectation. Um, I had no process and worked through a lot of my brokenness, but I could be honest about my past brokenness and my present brokenness and and even just like I got, I had one of them. I don't remember, but they just told me right away, like one of the things they loved about me is just, I was so honest and and that's what I was trying to do there. You know, even before we talked, you know, today it was kind of like Because I lived double lives, triple lives, so much when I was lying to my wife and I would go to work and they'd be the work Jason, I'd go to church in these Bible studies or whatever, and I'd be that, jason the churchy, jason the religious Jason. I'd be at home and I'd be kind of the home Jason. I'd be at home and I'd be kind of the you know home Jason. I'd have a different version of my personality in every setting I was in and I was trying to unify that. So when I'd go there and this group and maybe you know, I'd slip out a curse word or whatever right, say something that's not super popular. It was honest and and that's what I think. I think that's what works for guys. It's so unreligious and from my story, it's overly complicated by religion and I am now.

Speaker 4: 53:12

So who did Jesus go after when he was here? He went, he went after the religious people. They were trying to tell everybody how to do things and like what's wrong with them and and and and you know, making sure that it was all shiny on the outside but dirty on the inside and it was so, not that, and so, yeah, it's that that they were there and I just walk with them and that and just mostly be myself and got invited into um, you know, they were just starting. They did their first retreat, um, I, I, I attended the first retreat as an attendee and I've been invited back to every one since as a I guess, a facilitator On staff. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:03

We know that journey. By the way, I'm looking behind Sarge. There's a little closet here. It's full of masks. I appreciate what you're saying about the dad mask and the work mask and the church mask and the leader mask and the, you know, the papa and husband mask. We've got them all. And your naughty mask the last one you talked about right, I slipped an F-bomb in there and I'm just going to be myself, isn't it interesting Like our self-awareness increases, I think, the closer we get to the cross, you can look in the mirror and be honest about who you are. Right, and I don't think it has a lot to do with your vocabulary, right, it's not the words coming out of your mouth, it's what's coming out of your heart. We've learned Well, they're connected, right?

Speaker 2: 54:48

They're connected. I mean it's biblical, right, the words that come out of our mouth are connected to our hearts. And so there is, you know, there is something you know very beautiful about just being you, and even more beautiful than that is to be you in Christ. Right, and so you know, but that's just the journey. I mean that's the journey of sanctification and transformation that God does, that God does in our hearts over, over time as we draw near to him. Right and uh, and that and that's, and that's, that's your story, that's our story. Right, I mean, it's Jason's story, that's what I'm hearing.

Speaker 2: 55:26

Right, it's this, this beautiful, really coming to faith, I mean your, your faith becoming real. And you know it's, it's interesting, right, as we, we, we reach these new um mile markers in our lives and in our journey with, with Jesus and with our brothers, and we and we say oh, wow, okay, yeah, no, this is this is it. Oh, no, no, wait, wait, this is it. Oh, now I get it, this is it right, and it's just, you know, that's the journey, that's the journey, it's beautiful.

Speaker 1: 56:00

It is, and it's a good one, jason. We honor what you've done. When people hear your story, when you interact with others, when they see that you're just real, real man living a real life um, bent but not broken is my one of my favorite phrases. Um, I think it's, it's highly attractive, just so you know, in the best way possible. So keep telling your story, bro. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 56:27

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 56:28

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 56:28

I appreciate you guys.

Speaker 2: 56:30

It's beautiful. It's beautiful, I mean, it's just a beautiful story of, you know, forgiveness and redemption and grace and reconciliation and restoration. That that, I'm sure, continues. Right, it continues.

Speaker 1: 56:45

Yep, and and, by the way, I don't mean to beat this horse to death, but we told Brian the same thing when you get to your next wild courage meeting, bring a copy of Chris's book Sage with you and hand it around. Or bring a couple of copies of Early Christmas Presents. You're on a journey that that book will resonate with you and Brian and that group so much It'll shock you. Well, we want to say thank you, thanks for joining us in the foxhole. It's awesome to have folks like yourself and Brian join us and just tell your truth, and there's just nothing better for us as men who've decided that the world in our own digital way, needs to hear these stories. Yeah, so thanks for being you.

Speaker 4: 57:31

Yeah, thank you guys. I really am honored and humbled to be here. I hope, well, I hope God's glorified my story and I think my story is my marriage, my identity as a son. All of it is a redemption story, and so that's why I try to be honest about it, and even the stuff that doesn't make me look great, you know, it's all redeemed.

Speaker 2: 58:00

That's awesome. Well, I'm certainly blessed to hear your story and and I do hear God in it a lot, and, and I, you know, part of the redemption and we didn't really get to it, but I, I know from just a little bit I know about you and your family is that you love your children well, and we didn't really get into that too much. But you, you know, again, as an outsider looking in, from just hearing your heart and knowing a little bit about it, and I know they're adults, but you know all of the dynamics of what's you know currently going on in your family in these recent years and your love for them is so reflective of the father's love for us and for you, and so us, and and and for you, and so, um, yeah, well done. I mean well done, and that's not to you know, uh, you know, boost your ego, but I just, I just know I can see the work that God's done in your heart and, um, it's, it's beautiful. So keep going, brother.

Speaker 2: 59:10

We uh be encouraged and uh yeah, be, be strong in him and uh, we'll, we'll keep cheering you on and, um, thank you for being with us, brother.

Speaker 4: 59:20

Appreciate it, thank you.

Speaker 3: 59:24

What a blessing to have a brother come into the foxhole and share his truth, the good, the bad and the ugly, and I absolutely love how Jason wrapped it up at the end it's all redeemed, amen, brother. There was a lot to take in, and on my notes I have two major takeaways that Jason has helped me to lock into my heart and in my mind. The first every one of us has a story to tell. Some may be closer to the beginning of their story and some to the end. Some may be lost and unsure of tomorrow. Some may have just started their walk with Jesus and some may be 20 years deep in that journey with their Redeemer.

Speaker 3: 1:00:10

I want to remind myself to share my story when Holy Spirit prompts me, because it may be the only hopeful thing that person in front of me will hear that day, and also to remember to let my gentleness be known by all men, because some brothers are in the middle of a war and they need what this world can't offer the hope of Jesus. The second thing be the change in our life, in our family, at our work with our neighbors. Don't let the generational brokenness dictate how you live your life today. Fall in the arms of Jesus and let him write the redemption story that no one in your life ever expected to hear or see. Lord, please continue to use this podcast to impact the lives of all who listen. I ask that you would bring hope and healing to each and every one of them. Meet them right where they are and reveal yourself to them like only you can do.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

In Jesus' name. Amen, as it'll help us get found by others who could benefit. Find, follow and like us on your go-to social media networks by searching Foxhole Symphony or visit foxholesymphonycom to make it super easy to find us. Drop us a line with feedback, questions, topic requests. Who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on a future episode. In the meantime, prepare to move, embrace discomfort and just be you.